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05-14-2011, 06:49 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
my question is, is High ISO the most important aspect that people should be looking for primarily? just a simple question.
To me low ISO is one of the most important aspects of a dSLR.

05-14-2011, 07:00 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
is High ISO the most important aspect that people should be looking for primarily? just a simple question.
Nothing is that simple. You know that. The answer depends on your shooting needs.

If I was a basketball sports photog, I'd say (1) decent high ISO (2) decent AF (3) high fps.

If I was a landscape photog, I'd say (1) dynamic range (2) colour depth (3) lens and sensor resolution.

If I was a wedding photog, I'd say (1) good AF (2) good high ISO (3) good colour depth.

etc
05-14-2011, 07:54 AM   #228
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Based on the current state of semiconductor technology, I think APS-C type of sensor is approaching the limit (or bottle neck) in resolution (number of pixels) and sensitivity (signal to noise ratio), unless there is a fundamental break-through in technology and/or material. I wouldn't be surprised if K-5 to be the last (or the best) APS-C body of Pentax just as MZ-S in film body. Pentax may produce some more plastic bodies along the K-x and K-r line. I see the future in larger sensor and mirror-less design.
05-14-2011, 09:36 AM   #229
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Here's an ISO 1600 shot I took with my K-7 yesterday as the light was fading (a K-7 literally used in the field):


[flickr link]

It's very usable for me. Nothing makes up for good light though. The better the light, the better the results.

The following is also 1600 but in stronger daylight:


[flickr link]

05-14-2011, 10:20 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
No one on this forum has any idea regarding what was available to Pentax when the K20 or K7 were being designed.
The K7 sensor is very good indeed providing it isn't pushed to stupid high ISO. As a studio camera at lower ISO, the detail is excellent, and the colour and gradation is superb.
The D7K looks like a decent enough camera, though I found the interface to be clumsy. What hobbles it is that it doesn't take Pentax lenses.
For myself, lenses are more important than cameras.
Some people like blingy camera bodies, some people prefer lens qualities that actually make their images better.
Despite the fact that I love the K-5, I don't want to give the impression that I think the K20D or K-7 are 'bad cameras'. I still have my K20D, and it still makes the same beautiful images it always did. I like the K-5 *better*, it's true, and I think the sensor is much improved, but it's not that the K20D/K-7 sensor is bad. On a scale of 1-10, with the K-5 at 10 (in aps-c), I think the K20D/K-7 is a solid 8. It's the difference between good and better, not good and bad.

And I agree with you about Pentax glass. I shoot other glass sometimes, but the Pentax glass is the reason I chose the marque.
05-14-2011, 10:25 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by violini Quote
Based on the current state of semiconductor technology, I think APS-C type of sensor is approaching the limit (or bottle neck) in resolution (number of pixels) and sensitivity (signal to noise ratio), unless there is a fundamental break-through in technology and/or material. I wouldn't be surprised if K-5 to be the last (or the best) APS-C body of Pentax just as MZ-S in film body. Pentax may produce some more plastic bodies along the K-x and K-r line. I see the future in larger sensor and mirror-less design.
That's the same thing many folks said last generation, and the generation before. I can show you engineers saying the same thing about the *ist DL. Looking at the images from the 18MP rebels made me think that 14MP (in the K20D/K-7) was probably the limit; Sony, however, has demonstrated that this can change.

Because of the cost of manufacturing larger dies, I think that there will be a lot more development on APS-C, and, I'd bet, considerable improvement remaining.

But I agree about the mirrorless design. It's all the rage right now. I'd love to see a rangefinder-style, but I think hopes of FF are just pipe dreams. Pentax keeps adding lenses designed for the APS-C format, and not FF.
05-14-2011, 10:26 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by violini Quote
Based on the current state of semiconductor technology, I think APS-C type of sensor is approaching the limit (or bottle neck) in resolution (number of pixels) and sensitivity (signal to noise ratio), unless there is a fundamental break-through in technology and/or material. I wouldn't be surprised if K-5 to be the last (or the best) APS-C body of Pentax just as MZ-S in film body. Pentax may produce some more plastic bodies along the K-x and K-r line. I see the future in larger sensor and mirror-less design.
It appears Sony has a 25MP+/- APS-C that will be in the A77 or A7xx replacement. Expect it to be just as good or better than the current 16MP sensor in the K-5. We will reach the resolution point where the AA filter is no longer needed and everything can be handled by software.
05-14-2011, 11:43 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
That's the same thing many folks said last generation, and the generation before. I can show you engineers saying the same thing about the *ist DL. Looking at the images from the 18MP rebels made me think that 14MP (in the K20D/K-7) was probably the limit; Sony, however, has demonstrated that this can change.

Because of the cost of manufacturing larger dies, I think that there will be a lot more development on APS-C, and, I'd bet, considerable improvement remaining.

But I agree about the mirrorless design. It's all the rage right now. I'd love to see a rangefinder-style, but I think hopes of FF are just pipe dreams. Pentax keeps adding lenses designed for the APS-C format, and not FF.
There is some maximum. Once point and shoots got over about 10 megapixels, they ceased improving with regard to noise, dynamic range, etc. I don't know what the magic number is for APS-C, but I would bet it is somewhere between 18 and 20 megapixels.

05-14-2011, 11:58 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is some maximum. Once point and shoots got over about 10 megapixels, they ceased improving with regard to noise, dynamic range, etc. I don't know what the magic number is for APS-C, but I would bet it is somewhere between 18 and 20 megapixels.
Obviously there is *some* maximum, but there's a maximum for a given technology, not a 'flat maximum'. P&S users on the whole won't see much difference between a 10MP and a 20MP anyway; the images already far outstrip the resolution of the monitor or a 4x6 print. The k-5 sensor moves into dynamic range and read noise levels that are previously unheard of at this pixel density. I haven't read anything about their actual technology change, so I don't know if it's in the construction of the sensor sites, the area of the sensor site (vs support circuitry), or the read circuitry, but there's no reason to pronounce it "the final step". That requires predicting future technologies, which nobody is very good at (historically).
05-14-2011, 02:58 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
my question is, is High ISO the most important aspect that people should be looking for primarily? just a simple question.
__________________
It's not either or,it's as well as.
05-14-2011, 04:32 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
it only becomes extraneous when certain people think it is the ends of all means, thereby saying that it's the best thing that the camera could offer and the only thing that matters or treat it as the holy grail. .
Very tacky subject imo.

I remember the storm that followed the K-7's initial release as so many people acknowledged the step backward in sensitivity that came with it. At which point the claims that ISO wasn't everything began pouring-out by the boatload

However, I think most everyone involved knew that high ISO performance wasn't the end all to all performances when it came to the K-7. However that didn't mean that we had to keep quiet about it either did it?

For what its worth, high ISO performance is one of the few primary aspects that make-up a sensor's performance. ie. did anyone happen to notice the relationship between ISO performance and DR? And did we not notice the same relationship on the FF side of things?
I think its quite clear that there is more to high ISO performance than simple low light shooting. And so I wouldn't argue for or against high ISO performance exclusively, though I would definitely consider it a major part or a camera's performance capabilities.

On the issue of flash, I think this is another great misconception. Yes... using a flash is one way to work around low light limitations. But is it ideal? And I think most people would recognize that this isn't so as we find ourselves seeking to capture lighting within a scene or setting. And so again, I don't think were approaching the issue fairly either by separating certain aspects of a camera's capacity as a whole.

In closing, I'd say that low light sensitivity was a make of break issue in my case. As I found myself frustrated by the limitations crop sensors proved with natural light settings, I found myself at a crossroads with the Pentax bodies at the time of the K-7. At which point I found myself looking at a FF solution.

So I guess that for some of us, high ISO performance can be a make or brake scenario. Anyways... I am very happy with the K-5 now and I was more than happy to move away from a FF solution given the costs associated with what the equivalent kits would end-up being(3x the cost ).
05-14-2011, 05:03 PM   #237
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I bought the K5...and I know I made the right choice, this camera is a beast! The K7 was half the price but I think the K5 was well worth the $1340 I spent on it.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/143946-iso-36-000-baby.html#post1503635
05-14-2011, 05:44 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by crossover37 Quote
I bought the K5...and I know I made the right choice, this camera is a beast! The K7 was half the price but I think the K5 was well worth the $1340 I spent on it.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/143946-iso-36-000-baby.html#post1503635
Ah so that was you
Well if it helps, I also think you made the right decision.
The K-5's been the best APS-C camera I've ever owned and it never ceases to amaze me. I'm sure you're journey will be the same.
05-14-2011, 06:57 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by crossover37 Quote
I bought the K5..
Good one.
05-18-2011, 03:32 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Hi there, scrolled through the thread without luck, would you point me Adam's settings post please? thanks.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/106600-k-7-high-iso-success.html
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