Originally posted by jstevewhite Absolutely so. But you're not comparing power tools and hand tools; you're comparing different brands of power tools, because you could certainly produce the same volume of images with APS-c that you can with FF, right?
Workflow throughput would be affected if you needed to run all images from a session through an additional NR step to match the FF cleanliness, or if you needed to do some multi-image mashups to approximate a more shallow DOF for the same FOV. More likely, though, the AF module is just going to bring a higher keeper ratio (AF is not format-specific but comes with the bodies.) So yes, as a tool, it's easier to use generally.
Quote: A guy shows up to build your kid a swingset, do you care if he's using a 3/4 horsepower DeWalt or a 5/8 horsepower Makita drill to drill the mounting holes? *HE* may care.
Bingo! Steve, if you want your metaphorical analogy to follow mine, then keep the protagonist the same -
you are the worker here, not the guy having his swingset built.
You are choosing the tools that make your job easier, quicker, more enjoyable.
Quote: He may say that the DeWalt fits his hand better. He may say that the 1/8 horsepower more he gets really makes his life easier. He might say that his Dewalt is BETTER than the Makita. Consumer reports may say that the Makita has 5% fewer failures, so the other guy might claim his Makita is better.
I'd say DeWalt vs. Makita is more K5 vs D7000, or 5DmII vs D700 than aps-c vs FF.
Quote: The workmen care about their tools because they live with them.
Bingo++.
Quote: Metaphors are fun.
They are. But you have to make sure you don't get so excited you lose the gist of the preceding metaphor you're trying to refute!
Quote: Fair enough. But if isolation is my goal, I can step back and shoot a longer lens. The question of "better" presumes that one would shoot the same image with both cameras. Do you carry 'em both and shoot identical images with both of 'em?
Maybe I should talk about my typical shooting situations. Most of my shots are kid/family shots, I'm basically documenting their lives as much as practical, for us and extended family. Before FF I lived with a 35mm prime on all the time, I just found the FL so useful for that. Outside it was the K20D + DA 35ltd, inside usually the D90 + 35 1.8G. I also liked the 100mm & 135mm fl on aps-c a lot, for outdoor kid shots and just general telephoto stuff.
With the D700, I swapped the 35 for a $109 50 1.8, and fell in love with that FL on FF, and that lens performed very well on that camera. I noticed that right away I could get the f/1.8-like DOF at my typical subject distances (which I liked) at f/2.8 on the 50 + D700 - but f/2.8 on the 50 was sharper than f/1.8 on the 35 (and had less CA.) It was win-win, except the D700 combo was a bit bigger, so really, WIN-WIN-lose.
(50mm f/1.8, 35mm f/1.2 aps-c equiv, and 50mm f/2.2 ISO 2200, 35mm f/1.5 equiv)
The 180 2.8 (at $500, one of my most expensive Nikon lenses!) arrived in the mail, and it became my 'new' 100 and 135, with about a 120mm FL equivalent. But it was a 120mm f/1.8 with regards to DOF - not something I always took advantage of, but it was there. But again, the D700 + 180 2.8 was much larger than the K20D + M 100 2.8 or 135 3.5.
(both 180mm f/2.8, 120mm f/1.8 aps-c equiv)
So... for me, the whole DOF thing did work out to be nice. Not something I'd buy into FF for alone, but something that has been fun to have in my typical shooting situations. I fully understand if it doesn't ring everyone's bell.
(and nothing has yet defeated the 77ltd, the DA 35ltd is still the best 35 (or FF 50
) I've ever shot, and I'm using the 15ltd more than anything on either mount, now. So Pentax aps-c is staying in my bag as long as the company stays afloat.
)
Quote: Well, I know we've "been over this", but when I looked up the math, it came out like i expected in regard to hyperfocal length. So stopping down the longer lens simply does *not* give you the same DOF as APS-c, even with reduced COC. I'd be happy to consider factual rebuttals; I just googled the math and punched in numbers. So according to that math and my current understanding of it, it's not "more control of DOF", it's "less DOF".
I saw the example you gave to Marc, a 35mm lens at f/16 had an encroaching hyperfocal line... ?? I'm not sure how that applies to my example or to most shooting situations where you're shooting at subject-isolation apertures.
My 'stop down to match' example equates to:
35mm f/2.8 on aps-c = hyperfocal line at 21.8 meters
50mm f/4.5 on FF = hyperfocal line at 18.5 meters
Subject distance was about 3 meters. That's a long way from hyperfocal in both scenarios. Bob Atkins mentions that each bullet point applies as long as your subject is a significant distance from hyperfocal. Can you tell me how your hyperfocal argument applies to anything here?
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Last edited by jsherman999; 05-17-2011 at 11:14 PM.