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05-14-2011, 02:28 PM - 1 Like   #1
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How so much people here don't admit with FF IQ advantage?

Sometimes it really annoys me, after these people insist there is no significant difference besides DOF between FF and APS-C, but then they do find 645D images much better than FF, although objectively that difference isn't near as large as between first two.

I don't even mention superior viewfinder, which really helps to choose better moments (for me, at least).

05-14-2011, 02:45 PM   #2
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Um, because DOF does not change due to FF or crop? :-)
Perceived difference, yes, but technically the same area is in focus regardless of film or sensor size.
Not sure if that's exactly what you mean, but it could be one reason. ;-)

Of course I've never heard the argument for one and against the other, but if that's what you're hearing, I would agree it would be annoying. But there are lots of people who don't know what they're talking about.

Don't get too irritated by it. Just walk away, take some more photos and you'll feel better. :-) :-)

Last edited by amoringello; 05-14-2011 at 03:05 PM.
05-14-2011, 03:16 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
area is in focus
Its only a plane thats in perfect focus where points are really rendered as points, everything else is out of focus and the points are really rendered as out of focus circles. So sensor size does matter for depth of field. The larger the sensor the smaller the depth of field. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

Last edited by selar; 05-14-2011 at 03:25 PM.
05-14-2011, 03:21 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by selar Quote
Its only a plane thats in perfect focus where points are really rendered as points, everything else is out of focus and the points are really rendered as out of focus circles. So sensor size does matter for depth of field.
Actually no. If you're looking at percent of the frame, yes but that is not actually how you measure DOF.

Its often misunderstood or mis-represented, but film/sensor size is not an aspect that affects DOF.

Crop sensor does just that... it crops.
Naturally, getting in closer to the in-focus area around the plane of focus will make the DOF appear larger within the frame... but in reality the same amount of the subject will be in focus.

Well, when talking about circles of confusion... sure there is a difference almost insignificantly and impreceptively... certainly not enough to cause someone to go from crop to FF to get a different DOF like most people talk about.

05-14-2011, 03:30 PM   #5
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I should correct myself... circles of confusion do not change based on sensor size.... light has no idea how big the sensor is. It may change slightly due to pixel size within the sensor and the distances between them.
This usually is significantly different between FF and crop sensors, so you could almost use them interchangeably, but it is not exactly accurate.

Still, the difference caused at that level really is quite irrelevant.
05-14-2011, 03:43 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
circles of confusion do not change based on sensor size
True, but they need to be blown up less in cropped sensor to achieve same size subject in a 8x10 print
05-14-2011, 03:56 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by selar Quote
True, but they need to be blown up less in cropped sensor to achieve same size subject in a 8x10 print
No. See equivalency.

DAZ
05-14-2011, 03:57 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Sometimes it really annoys me, after these people insist there is no significant difference besides DOF between FF and APS-C, but then they do find 645D images much better than FF, although objectively that difference isn't near as large as between first two.

I don't even mention superior viewfinder, which really helps to choose better moments (for me, at least).
I recently did a simple test between the K200D, K-5 and D3x and interestingly enough, there was little to be seen beyond that of resolution(and one person thought the K-5 and D3x were from the same camera). Which btw can mean alot when considering characteristics such as; microntrast, 3D and spacial detail. Though I don't think any of those are exclusive to the FF advantage either.

And so given the recent developments in crop sensor performances, what other differences can we expect beyond DOF?

PS. I think one of the biggest advantages beyond resolution are in the DOF areas. However, insofar as color and DR and low light performance, I don't think were looking at any exclusives there either.

05-14-2011, 04:34 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
How so much people here don't admit with FF IQ advantage?

It's because about the only advantage that 135 format has over APS=C at the moment in the size of the viewfinder (which is no small thing).
05-14-2011, 04:56 PM   #10
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Also review this old but quite technical thread discussing a very similar matter:

Low noise benefit of FF vs APS-C equals ... zero - PentaxForums.com
05-14-2011, 05:07 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
It's because about the only advantage that 135 format has over APS=C at the moment in the size of the viewfinder (which is no small thing).
I don't have a 35mm DSLR, but the 1.3x crop I have has a wonderful viewfinder for my old eyes. I had a really hard time if I had to manually focus my 1.5x or 1.6x bodies. I am kind of jonsin' for a 5D just for the tokina 16-28mm I got recently.(I can live without it though)
05-14-2011, 06:24 PM - 1 Like   #12
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MF > FF > APS
very simple, really, as far as pure IQ goes.

But the beasts are different.

MF targets studio and landscapes, optimized IQ at iso 50, most sensors are without an AA filter. At iso 50, FF doesn't stand a chance!

FF cameras are do-it-all cameras. IQ wise, I'd say they are 2-3 years ahead of APS-C IQ.
I must say I do have a soft for the sports models, but I know I'd dislike carrying a D3s or a 1Div. I'd also dislike paying for them, and for the optics they deserve. But if I were a pro, i wouldn't hesitate, based on the lens options, accessories & software compatibility, AF systems and service networks. The slight IQ advantage is just a bonus.

Realistically, for the use I do, the K5's 16mpx, standard ISO 12800, 12 stop DR etc are more than enough IQ. With a tripod & live view & good lens, the detail is stunning. Add to that in-body stabilization and limited primes, and I get a sub-kilo package that can challenge (IQ-wise) a FF DSLR with its 24-70 f/2.8 weighing more than twice as much! For me, that difference in size means that I'll have the camera with me much more often.

I also have a Pentax 67. Leaving home with the beast is a pure photo outing. The K5 can also come on non-photo outings. Not so with the 67! The 70-200 is likely to stay home too!

All I really want from PENTAX is 50 AF points with awesome tracking, and a 500mm f/4 lens, or at least a teleconverter!!!
05-14-2011, 06:29 PM - 2 Likes   #13
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Because Pentax has no 135 digital FF, period. By the time Pentax released one, if ever, they would start to praise how great it was. Why are you surprised anyway?
05-14-2011, 06:43 PM   #14
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Current full frame cameras have the advantages of a nicer viewfinder, better high iso. Interestingly, recent Sony sensors have caught up and even passed 35mm sensors with regard to dynamic range, which to me, was one of the biggest reasons to use 35mm in the first place. Of course, there will be a new generation of full frame sensors that likely will pass these APS-C sensors, but when they will come is debatable.

Camera companies in general tend to put their highest tech into these bodies (read higher fps and faster auto focus), however, that is not something that is intrinsic to full frame, but more a function of Nikon/Canon pushing photographers to camera bodies that generate more revenue for them.

In the end, the photographer, the lens used, and the post processing make far more difference than these small differences between format sizes.
05-14-2011, 09:42 PM   #15
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Oh no! Not another DOF/FFvsAPC thread!
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