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05-24-2011, 08:07 AM   #121
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But let's ask - Why is purchasing a Nikon or Canon a disease?/;-)

One needs to ask why are the diseased not seeking the Pentax cure:-)

I chose the K10D as my first dslr and trust me I have quite a few published shots from this cam, even at ISO1600 - having shot alongside D200, D300, 50D, 5DMK11 since 2006.

I shoot a lot of indoor climbing events but I'm strictly an amateur but in saying that I have been taking photo's (at one time professionally) for nigh on 30 years

Why would I as first time Pentax user, devoid of any disease, now migrate to a colony infested with disease?

LOL - I must be mad!!

Seriously though - all dslrs from all brands in the upper end are fine photographic tools.

I know a wedding tog still shooting with the 30D (which is regarded as ancient) with a 550D for very lowlight work and video clips and she is certainly not battling for work.

It's all fun

05-24-2011, 11:29 AM   #122
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Clearly all brands make good cameras. I wouldn't shoot with some of the bottom end cameras from Canon or Nikon, unless I was desperate. The question the OP brought up is, I think, simply, why some people think that they are better photographers because they shoot Nikon/Canon than those who don't and tend to push those brands on those they know?

Truthfully, I tend to stay pretty far away from selling my friends/family on buying a Pentax camera. If they ask, I will tell them the strengths I see in Pentax and the weaknesses too, but I don't sell them a camera. I would rather see them make a decision and be satisfied with it, than wish they had chosen some thing else and be frustrated with me.

I see the same attitude on Pentax forums, where I really see people give honest advice and often will recommend Nikon or Canon cameras, if they think the person asking would do better with them.
05-24-2011, 11:49 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Clearly all brands make good cameras. I wouldn't shoot with some of the bottom end cameras from Canon or Nikon, unless I was desperate. The question the OP brought up is, I think, simply, why some people think that they are better photographers because they shoot Nikon/Canon than those who don't and tend to push those brands on those they know?

Truthfully, I tend to stay pretty far away from selling my friends/family on buying a Pentax camera. If they ask, I will tell them the strengths I see in Pentax and the weaknesses too, but I don't sell them a camera. I would rather see them make a decision and be satisfied with it, than wish they had chosen some thing else and be frustrated with me.

I see the same attitude on Pentax forums, where I really see people give honest advice and often will recommend Nikon or Canon cameras, if they think the person asking would do better with them.
I usually tell them if they buy a current model from any current vendor, they can't go too far wrong.
05-24-2011, 11:54 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
I usually tell them if they buy a current model from any current vendor, they can't go too far wrong.
If I'm asked I'll first question what it is that is important for them to photograph and how they want to use it. then i can say look at this or that (for many casual photographers Pentax can fit the bill as well as any so it may well be one of my recommendations, but for a lot of people i may just recommend a high quality p/s like the panasonic lx5 or a g12 canon before an slr
or an evil for that matter despite the fact that none of the current crop do it for me

05-24-2011, 11:59 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If I'm asked I'll first question what it is that is important for them to photograph and how they want to use it. then i can say look at this or that (for many casual photographers Pentax can fit the bill as well as any so it may well be one of my recommendations, but for a lot of people i may just recommend a high quality p/s like the panasonic lx5 or a g12 canon before an slr
or an evil for that matter despite the fact that none of the current crop do it for me
Fair enough; I don't just give 'em one sentence. But as much difference as there is between vendors, they're much more alike than any dslr is like a P&S or MF. I think you can pretty much accomplish any shooting situation with any DSLR. I prefer Pentax because I love the lenses; if someone tells me that they want to take up photography as a hobby, i think Pentax is a good choice. if it's just a means to an end (getting pictures of something), other brands may be better choices.
05-24-2011, 12:09 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
Fair enough; I don't just give 'em one sentence. But as much difference as there is between vendors, they're much more alike than any dslr is like a P&S or MF. I think you can pretty much accomplish any shooting situation with any DSLR. I prefer Pentax because I love the lenses; if someone tells me that they want to take up photography as a hobby, i think Pentax is a good choice. if it's just a means to an end (getting pictures of something), other brands may be better choices.
for probably 70+ % of the friends and family who will ask the KR 2 lens kit (or equivalent nikon or yeech canon) will meet all their needs and they may never need to add anything other than a decent flash. For most of my friends i can have a look at whats current at the local shops and tell them to go and try them out for feel, and if i have the time i'll tag along to translate salesperson baffle gab

If they are looking for an SLR I will first ask if they own one and still have it. if the answer is yes and it was a Pentax (quite frequently they are k1000 or spotmatics people have) i will point out the ability to use some of the old gear with the new
flip side i has a fiend who is a multimedia artist ask for advice and after many discussions she ended up with a panasonic superzoom, and has prints that are 4x6 feet as part of a work from that camera. suited her needs perfectly and the first piece sold payed for the camera and a lot more.
05-24-2011, 12:20 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
Fair enough; I don't just give 'em one sentence. But as much difference as there is between vendors, they're much more alike than any dslr is like a P&S or MF. I think you can pretty much accomplish any shooting situation with any DSLR. I prefer Pentax because I love the lenses; if someone tells me that they want to take up photography as a hobby, i think Pentax is a good choice. if it's just a means to an end (getting pictures of something), other brands may be better choices.
The reality is that most folks out there don't buy lots of lenses. They shoot with the kit lens and maybe a 70-300 lens with a fairly slow aperture. We forum-ites are the unusual ones.

Most people get SLRs for the decreased shutter lag and better high iso. They don't even think about lenses.

If someone actually came to me, who was interested in shooting professionally, I would have them draw up a "system." Stuff they need now, stuff they hope to be able to purchase in the future and then have them figure out which brand offered what they needed and for what cost. My experience is that there really isn't that much difference over all, except when it comes to really long lenses (which most photogs aren't really interested in anyway).
05-24-2011, 12:37 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The reality is that most folks out there don't buy lots of lenses. They shoot with the kit lens and maybe a 70-300 lens with a fairly slow aperture. We forum-ites are the unusual ones.

Most people get SLRs for the decreased shutter lag and better high iso. They don't even think about lenses.

If someone actually came to me, who was interested in shooting professionally, I would have them draw up a "system." Stuff they need now, stuff they hope to be able to purchase in the future and then have them figure out which brand offered what they needed and for what cost. My experience is that there really isn't that much difference over all, except when it comes to really long lenses (which most photogs aren't really interested in anyway).
this pretty much defines it, and in all likelihood you will rarely come across a potential pro who will ask for advise on a kit, though i've had discussions on pros and cons of different cameras (mostly because i shoot Pentax and they wonder why i chose it. versus another system)

05-24-2011, 01:14 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The problem with FF is not pro support but the lack of market penetration for FF. As long as FF have 5% of the DSLR market, Pentax have no chance to be competitive or sell an FF camera in sufficient volume.
.


Unless they offer a distinctive product - much smaller, probably less expensive. This would expand the market some.

They also have a captive upgrade market that has not been fully tapped. Almost anyone who can afford a $1400 aps-c k-5 could afford a $2000 K-1, with a bit more time to save and/or a bit more on the plastic. These same folks would be more willing to upgrade to a Pentax K-1 than to jump ship completely to a D700 or A850 or 5D II.

The entire MFD market volume was something like 6000 units annually, worldwide, yet Pentax entered that market - and expanded it a bit, because their product was unique in both form, capability and price.


.

Last edited by jsherman999; 05-24-2011 at 01:24 PM.
05-24-2011, 01:21 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.


Unless they offer a distinctive product - much smaller, probably less expensive. This would expand the market some.

They also have a captive upgrade market that has not been fully tapped. Almost anyone who can afford a $1400 aps-c k-5 could afford a $2000 K-1, with a bit more time to save and/or a bit more on the plastic. These same folks would be more willing to upgrade to a Pentax K-1 than to jump ship completely to a D700 or A850.

The entire MFD market volume was something like 6000 units annually, worldwide, yet Pentax entered that market - and expanded it a bit, because their product was unique in both form and price.


.

There is a magic number (around 1000 dollars) this the cut off on what people think is expensive. Once you go over that number, your number of units sold will drop. At 1100 or 1200, there will still be plenty of people who will stretch to that, but at 2000 dollars, that number drops considerably.

I don't see Pentax being able to release a full frame camera for less than the D700. Maybe they could, but their units sold will be ten percent of Nikon sales, while R and D costs and material costs will be the same -- just doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.
05-24-2011, 01:33 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is a magic number (around 1000 dollars) this the cut off on what people think is expensive. Once you go over that number, your number of units sold will drop. At 1100 or 1200, there will still be plenty of people who will stretch to that, but at 2000 dollars, that number drops considerably.

I don't see Pentax being able to release a full frame camera for less than the D700. Maybe they could, but their units sold will be ten percent of Nikon sales, while R and D costs and material costs will be the same -- just doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.
of course the ever descending price on sensors will be what changes this, and nikon/canon/sony will have born a lot of that cost of development by being the manufacturing equivalent of an early adopter
no reason there couldn't be a modified k5 with a bigger VF and FF sensor, the cost of this change would be small as most of the rest exists already, use a 1 generation old sensor first go round and come in at a lower price (see Sony 850 for example) being in the market with a entry level FF representing value is the way to grab share and make room for new developments (see 645D for example)
BUT: Given the public statements on FF and the lack of any hint of it coming beyond spurious rumour generating threads on various forums leads me to believe it's not coming in the near future and possibly not the distant future either (I could see a lower price 645d (stripped of some features with a higher end 645 model with FF (the new lenses all support FF 645) before FF in 35mm (where most new lenses do not support FF - officially in any case)
05-24-2011, 01:33 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is a magic number (around 1000 dollars) this the cut off on what people think is expensive. Once you go over that number, your number of units sold will drop. At 1100 or 1200, there will still be plenty of people who will stretch to that, but at 2000 dollars, that number drops considerably.

I don't see Pentax being able to release a full frame camera for less than the D700. Maybe they could, but their units sold will be ten percent of Nikon sales, while R and D costs and material costs will be the same -- just doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.
I doubt that much of the R&D cost is actually associated with the FF Sensor itself. Sony handles that for Nikon, and now for Pentax.
05-24-2011, 01:50 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
I doubt that much of the R&D cost is actually associated with the FF Sensor itself. Sony handles that for Nikon, and now for Pentax.
Of course you are right. It is more the R and D associated with having a camera that truly matches up (with regard to auto focus, fps...) to Canon/Nikon full frame cameras. With the 645D, Pentax basically used the K7 focus module and software and released a camera with decent (but not particularly fast) auto focus and quite slow fps. That was fine for the medium format market, but would not cut it against current full frame offerings from Canikon.
05-28-2011, 12:54 PM   #134
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As a long time Canon film and DSLR user, and Pentax MF film user (6x7 & 645), I would like to offer some thoughts.

Because I am quite familiar and comfortable with Pentax equipment, if not the new owners, I've recently decided to make the plunge and purchase a 645D and a backup K-5. To do this I've sold virtually all my Canon gear (5D2, assortment of L lenses, etc.) and there are some things that I will miss. Such as the 70-200 F4L, one of the best lenses in performance and value in the Canon line and the video capabilities of the 5D2 and the FF capability for wide angle night sky/night scape shots.

That said, I'm looking forward to the 645D, having shot with one for two days. But my transition will be a lot easier than most because I already own a large number of 67 and 645 lenses. Some of the issues facing Pentax in terms of sales numbers and market penetration in prosumer and professional market have been discussed here. But one thing missed is the fact that both Canon and Nikon have professional services for users of their high end lenses and bodies. Pentax has a similar service but requirements to join are quite stiff including the requirement to make most of one's income from photography.

Prepping my 5D2 for sale, I returned it to Canon CPS for a cleaning and inspection along with one of my L lenses. They received the item on Monday, performed the work the same day, shipped it all back on Tuesday by overnight FEDEX (prepaid) and I received it on Wednesday.
Pentax will have to develop that type of responsiveness to attract pro and semi-pro owners.

Many potential buyers of the 645D are not as fortunate as I in having a large number of applicable lenses already in the back room. The cost of buying new lenses for the 645D is daunting and bordering on a price-gouge, although not in Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad territory.

I'm looking forward to working with my new Pentax gear. And this forum is refreshingly civil which also is a plus!
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