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07-08-2011, 10:54 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Good point. Only Leica seems to get away with that.
Leica is a special sort of critter.

QuoteQuote:
For Pentax, the allure of a digital FF is an SR-stabilised FA Limited primes.
I certainly agree there, only I'd extend it to "SR-stabilized primes". The big guys put it in long lenses, but not in their 50s, or 85s, or 35s, or what have you. SR+fast, wide glass== ability to take sharp image in light I can't navigate in

QuoteQuote:
We'll go FF when APS-C runs out of steam and marketing says to engineering: "Time to go big". And the bean counters say "Here's some money, go big".
That makes sense, but do you really think that's on the horizon? I mean, 35mm never ran out of steam. Canon and Nikon didn't start making 50mm film cameras...

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I saw a guy with a digital Hasselblad. I wanted to run up and scratch the lens with a dime when I actually saw him rub the lens with his sleeve, I kid you not!
ROFL! Lenses aren't as fragile as all that. Still, I wince anyway when I see something like that. But when I was assisting for commercial photographers, I saw the stuff they did with their gear and said, "Holy shit! They should be SHOT for that!" ( For a random example: I once saw a fellow TOSS a 350mm Rodenstock in shutter 8x10 lens at least six feet, into a foam padded case - and he laughed at my panicked look ) Then I realized that to a working pro - a daily grind, day-in-day-out, high-demand working pro - the gear is like hammers and saws to a carpenter. Failure is a daily reality, and you buy gear you can kick around because you *do* kick it around. Familiarity breeds contempt.

07-08-2011, 11:01 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
- Pentax will soon be releasing the Q camera/system. This is the smallest ever released. The extending flash in the Q is a Pentax feat of engineering that disproves a general "it can't be done" mindset.
I just hadda say, after seeing it, I think the Q popup flash is going to be a warranty monster. People are going to tear those things up left and right - partly because the Q is so small. Toss it in the handbag and accidentally pop the flash, and see how well it works after an hour of riding around in there.
07-08-2011, 11:03 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Sony doesn't have an IBIS full frame body, it can't be done.

:sarcasm:

Hmmm, the A900 and A850 specs and reviews say otherwise. Or do your smileys insinuate that it's there but doesn't work? Or that it only works with certain lenses? Exhausted minds want to know...
07-08-2011, 11:04 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Hmmm, the A900 and A850 specs and reviews say otherwise. Or do your smileys insinuate that it's there but doesn't work? Or that it only works with certain lenses?

Did you not see this > sarcasm Obviously they have done it but there are those who are still arguing it can't be done.

07-08-2011, 11:09 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Did you not see this > :sarcasm: Obviously they have done it but there are those who are still arguing it can't be done.
Ah. Like theoretically, bumblebees can't fly -- wrong aerodynamics. Gotcha. Time to sleep now. Zzzzz...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and my delaminating eyeballs had a hard time deciphering the sarcasm image. Bother.
07-08-2011, 11:29 PM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Did you not see this > :sarcasm: Obviously they have done it but there are those who are still arguing it can't be done.
I'm actually just curious. I mean, are all the alpha lenses designed with an extra-large image circle because they knew they'd make a sensor-shift stabilized FF? Or is there, buried deep in the instruction manual (like the bit in the K-5 manual about lockups on low batteries) a line that says something like "Fast lenses may vignette asymmetrically when used wide open with SR; if you encounter this, switch off SR or use a smaller aperture."?
07-08-2011, 11:57 PM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
If that is the case then why are Canon guys hacking the damn levers off of A 50/1.2 etc and going to the trouble of shaving the mirrors on there ff bodies to use vintage glass? Furthermore, a lot of the people that want a full frame body want to take advantage of fast, wide angle glass. You, know, the opposite of that argument that FA 20 and K18 aren't really, ultrawide. That is just one aspect of it. On top of that, a full frame digital body isn't going to magically relegate the FA 31mm/1.8 or K28./2 to to opaque glass. Furthermore, it is expected that updated glass will be forthwith. After all, Pentax has been putting out full frame glass since 1950
There will be glass that will work fine, but the bulk of the lenses will not be satisfactory for critical users.

The current 43 LTD is an excellent lens on an APS-C, but even it is showing vignetting and softness around the outer 25% of the frame. On a FF it will even worse. You increase the sensor size by 50% and I think you will find a lot of these lenses start to show their limitations. There will be lenses that do very well, but those are the exception and not the rule. There are people who like the look of cheap glass and there will be a market for it. The K-7/K-5 even have "art" filters built in to make you images look like they were taken with cheap glass.


As someone who owns a FF Canon rig and knows several other professionals who do as well...... None of them are shaving mirrors or hacking off leveler. That is something you find with enthusiasts. If I am working an event or a shoot I don't have time to play with stuff like that. I need something that works fast and consistent.
07-09-2011, 12:11 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The current 43 LTD is an excellent lens on an APS-C
It's a good lens for freaks only. Excellent for shooting "beautiful" leafs, trash cans, etc. Useless focal length.
The only really useful lens from FA Ltds on APS-C is 31Ltd. 77 is good, but a little too long. But you don't have a good 31Ltd replacement for APS-C, since 21Ltd is designed to be tiny rather than provide decent IQ.
QuoteQuote:
, but even it is showing vignetting and softness around the outer 25% of the frame. On a FF it will even worse.
You didn't get the idea of bigger sensor. Those parts that looks soft on APS-C will look quite sharp when used on FF. So, the parts supposed to be very soft on FF won't be actually but rather will look as soft as the edges when using on APS-C. The vignetting is a pain though, but we get higher sharpness and object isolation instead.


Last edited by Emacs; 07-09-2011 at 12:17 AM.
07-09-2011, 07:57 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There will be glass that will work fine, but the bulk of the lenses will not be satisfactory for critical users.

The current 43 LTD is an excellent lens on an APS-C, but even it is showing vignetting and softness around the outer 25% of the frame. On a FF it will even worse. You increase the sensor size by 50% and I think you will find a lot of these lenses start to show their limitations. There will be lenses that do very well, but those are the exception and not the rule. There are people who like the look of cheap glass and there will be a market for it. The K-7/K-5 even have "art" filters built in to make you images look like they were taken with cheap glass.


As someone who owns a FF Canon rig and knows several other professionals who do as well...... None of them are shaving mirrors or hacking off leveler. That is something you find with enthusiasts. If I am working an event or a shoot I don't have time to play with stuff like that. I need something that works fast and consistent.
News flash, the FA 43 LTD was designed for 24x36mm area.


QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
It's a good lens for freaks only. Excellent for shooting "beautiful" leafs, trash cans, etc. Useless focal length.
The only really useful lens from FA Ltds on APS-C is 31Ltd. 77 is good, but a little too long. But you don't have a good 31Ltd replacement for APS-C, since 21Ltd is designed to be tiny rather than provide decent IQ.

You didn't get the idea of bigger sensor. Those parts that looks soft on APS-C will look quite sharp when used on FF. So, the parts supposed to be very soft on FF won't be actually but rather will look as soft as the edges when using on APS-C. The vignetting is a pain though, but we get higher sharpness and object isolation instead.
The only "freak" around here is you.
07-09-2011, 08:00 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
I'm actually just curious. I mean, are all the alpha lenses designed with an extra-large image circle because they knew they'd make a sensor-shift stabilized FF? Or is there, buried deep in the instruction manual (like the bit in the K-5 manual about lockups on low batteries) a line that says something like "Fast lenses may vignette asymmetrically when used wide open with SR; if you encounter this, switch off SR or use a smaller aperture."?
I don't know since I don't own a Sony. However, they do have the only auto focus Zeiss lenses currently on the market.
07-09-2011, 10:42 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
It's a good lens for freaks only. Excellent for shooting "beautiful" leafs, trash cans, etc. Useless focal length.
The only really useful lens from FA Ltds on APS-C is 31Ltd. 77 is good, but a little too long. But you don't have a good 31Ltd replacement for APS-C, since 21Ltd is designed to be tiny rather than provide decent IQ.
Where do you GET this stuff? You can't pay for comedy like that. The FA31 is an exceptional lens with exceptional IQ; the DA21 is a good lens with different characteristics but still excellent IQ. You seem to regard the spectrum as being bifurcated into "The Best" and "Crap". It's just ridiculous.
07-09-2011, 02:36 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
News flash, the FA 43 LTD was designed for 24x36mm area.
l:
News Flash. It was designed for FILM which is a lot more forgiving that digital. CA is not an issue with film. Film can deal with light striking the focal plane at a much greater angle than a digital sensor. Vignetting can be handled in post pretty well with modern processing, but it is still an issue. Some of these lenses are showing a 1 stop difference in exposure in the corners of an APS-C sensor. How much of a loss would we have on a 50% larger sensor? 2-stops? If you are already pushing 6400 and you have to boost the corners 2-stops you are going to see some serious image degradation. Will it effect all types of photography and all shooters? NO, but I'm not going to pay $1,000 for a LTD lens to use on a FF if I can't use the entire frame. If you like the soft edges and lots of vignetting by a Lens Baby.

There are going to be certain focal lengths that do very well on digital sensors, and there are going to be a lot of other that don't. Lenses that are already showing problems in the outer 25% of the image on APS-C are going to show even more problems on a 50% larger sensor.
07-09-2011, 03:03 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
News Flash. It was designed for FILM which is a lot more forgiving that digital. CA is not an issue with film. Film can deal with light striking the focal plane at a much greater angle than a digital sensor. Vignetting can be handled in post pretty well with modern processing, but it is still an issue. Some of these lenses are showing a 1 stop difference in exposure in the corners of an APS-C sensor. How much of a loss would we have on a 50% larger sensor? 2-stops? If you are already pushing 6400 and you have to boost the corners 2-stops you are going to see some serious image degradation. Will it effect all types of photography and all shooters? NO, but I'm not going to pay $1,000 for a LTD lens to use on a FF if I can't use the entire frame. If you like the soft edges and lots of vignetting by a Lens Baby.

There are going to be certain focal lengths that do very well on digital sensors, and there are going to be a lot of other that don't. Lenses that are already showing problems in the outer 25% of the image on APS-C are going to show even more problems on a 50% larger sensor.

The very first lens I would buy for a FF Pentax DSLR would the 43ltd. It resolves incredibly highly in the center stopped down two stops, and is fully usable wide-open. The edges shouldn't matter in almost any practical wide-open shooting situation. The FOV, edge-center disparity combined with the DOF control at high apertures on a FF camera would bring magical results - probably better than anything I've yet shot on Nikon. Plus, it's very small.


.

Last edited by jsherman999; 07-09-2011 at 03:11 PM.
07-09-2011, 03:44 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The very first lens I would buy for a FF Pentax DSLR would the 43ltd. It resolves incredibly highly in the center stopped down two stops, and is fully usable wide-open. The edges shouldn't matter in almost any practical wide-open shooting situation. The FOV, edge-center disparity combined with the DOF control at high apertures on a FF camera would bring magical results - probably better than anything I've yet shot on Nikon. Plus, it's very small.


.
It would depend on what I was going to be using the lens for. I agree that the 43mm is an excellent lens (on APS-C). I have never seen results from a FF digital so I can only speculate about its performance.
07-09-2011, 04:59 PM   #240
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Looking at Photozone's review of the FA 43, it sure looks like it would have quite a bit of vignetting wide open. Probably not a big deal for portraits, but on full frame, you wouldn't use it shoot portraits, would you?
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