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06-27-2011, 06:52 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
The samsung nx lenses have better IQ, canon lenses have better IQ, nikon lenses have better IQ
No, I've heard you say that - or read it, rather. I just see no evidence of it, besides your assertions.

06-27-2011, 06:55 AM   #17
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yet Nikon lately, is producing some very exotic glass mainly for use on FF

other than low light (without flash) photography where only the cleanest high iso file is accepted for pro work, the newest Sony sensor as found in the K5 and others, is easily a match for current FF up to iso 800.
06-27-2011, 07:03 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
yet Nikon lately, is producing some very exotic glass mainly for use on FF

other than low light (without flash) photography where only the cleanest high iso file is accepted for pro work, the newest Sony sensor as found in the K5 and others, is easily a match for current FF up to iso 800.
And more than a match for previous generations of FF cameras at nearly any ISO. But the technology will probably migrate upstream to the FF and restore the balance with the next gen; how else are they going to convince people to upgrade from their D3S/etc cams?
06-27-2011, 07:29 AM - 1 Like   #19
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I think that technology will continue erode the advantages of FF over APS-C (and even smaller formats) to the point where only the true "die-hards" will opt for FF.

06-27-2011, 07:56 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
And more than a match for previous generations of FF cameras at nearly any ISO. But the technology will probably migrate upstream to the FF and restore the balance with the next gen; how else are they going to convince people to upgrade from their D3S/etc cams?
I imagine it will be by some increase in dynamic range/high iso, but a really big increase in megapixels. Currently, all of Nikon's full frame cameras except the D3x are 12 megapixels. Shouldn't be hard to double that, I would think.
06-27-2011, 08:15 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I think that technology will continue erode the advantages of FF over APS-C (and even smaller formats) to the point where only the true "die-hards" will opt for FF.
Realistically, for 99.9% of all photographic applications where a portable, hand-held camera is a viable option, FF isn't a technical necessity anyway, but an artistic choice - much like film is now. So I think you're right on, mostly
06-27-2011, 08:21 AM   #22
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Though I would like to see a FF Pentax (and from the Q launch Q&A it appears it's not off the boards entirely - why would they talk about something not ready for market yet) Cameras like the K5 truly reduce the need for me to move to a heavier, bulkier FF camera for most reasons (Even the increased DOF performance is limited value, handy at 2.8 sure but at 1.4 to narrow to be of much use to me) I have other cameras that can give me high performance like my medium format when need be, and am not averse to buying another brand for FF if I feel i really need it (though i prefer Nikon to canon ergonomically)
Would it be nice to see FF Pentax. Yep it would. Is it needed, perhaps but as time passes it seems to be less and less so. FF is still a pretty tiny market, introducing a FF option would also require several new lenses to go with it (24-70 2.8, 70-200 23.8 12-24, 24-70 f4, 70-200 f4 to really be able to offer a system in addition to probably reintroducing a 21-24 fast prime to go with the current lineup) Not that it's not possible for Hoya to do all these things (a number of the needs could be met with re-engineered F/FA lenses) but is the ROI there with the market where it sits? I'm sure a number of people here would by the FF when it comes out, I'm not sure there are enough of us to make it viable, and without the additional lenses and support i'm not sure there are enough outside users to tempt to the system. Canon and Nikon sell a lot of FF due to their ability to support the lens and focus requirements of sports shooters and journalists. Sony apparently has pulled back a bit despite having some pretty nice lenses available their system wasn't getting a big enough share is my guess, is there really room for a 4th system competing for the same small slice of the pie dominated by the big 2? not at today's prices i think which i'm pretty certain is why hoya is non-committal for now.

as for what appears to be a slowdown by the others, I think it's more due to the FF sensor cycle being close to 3 years versus 1-1.5 years like apsC
It doesn't help that Nikon lost their FF plant in the earthquake making it damn hard to even get a Nikon FF right now never mind launch a new one (as the D 800 launch was delayed until the fall at the earliest)

Hoya did mention that the division showed profit last cycle (no comments on the current cycle but that's no surprise) so they are doing something right despite all the moaning about robot cameras etc and some of the funky stuff from a NA perspective. that is good to hear it means we have a much better chance of out gear having support 5 years down the road than we did 5 years ago
06-27-2011, 01:30 PM   #23
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This has been an interesting discussion.

06-27-2011, 03:12 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
In the future, I would like to have a camera body that is capable of taking full advantage of the original design of my manual lenses (all of which are m-series). I would also like to return to the depth of field characteristics of the original format I fell in love with, which is the 24mm x 36mm imaging surface. It would be somewhat heart-breaking if it were necessary for me to switch to another brand and system to do this.

I think I can speak on behalf of more than a few of us who would like to see a full-frame camera AND would like it to be a Pentax.
BUT.... it is not going to happen, so it really does not matter.

You don't really "need" full frame or would would have already made the switch. If you income depended on the advantages of the larger sensor you would have bought into a system that meets those needs.

Looking at the corner performance of the current FA lenses on APS-C sensors, I doubt most of your M-series lenses would perform as well as you would like. Increasing the sensor size by 50% only means you have a larger area that will be soft. There are a lot of issues that modern digital lenses have to deal with that older film lenses didn't. While some of the older film lenses and focal lengths work very well with digital cameras, there are a lot more that are pretty marginal.
06-27-2011, 06:56 PM   #25
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You are right, I don't need full frame, but I would never limit myself to only purchasing artistic tools that I need. That is not what photography is about to me.

The "imperfections" inherent to any given photographic system are part of what its users tend to consider beautiful, and having a larger area that will be soft is one of the only reasons I would want a full frame sensor. It wouldn't be what I would like for every photographic application, but it would be for some.

I have to say, I am surprised at what appears to be a somewhat negative tone to this discussion. I did not start this thread to insult Pentax, or anyone who is not interested in full frame. I am simply saying that it is something I am interested in. I don't think any of us can predict what will happen in the future with certainty.

I would have predicted that there would have been virtually no market for either the i-pod mini or the i-pad, but we all see how those worked out.
06-27-2011, 07:30 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
You are right, I don't need full frame, but I would never limit myself to only purchasing artistic tools that I need. That is not what photography is about to me.

The "imperfections" inherent to any given photographic system are part of what its users tend to consider beautiful, and having a larger area that will be soft is one of the only reasons I would want a full frame sensor. It wouldn't be what I would like for every photographic application, but it would be for some.

I have to say, I am surprised at what appears to be a somewhat negative tone to this discussion. I did not start this thread to insult Pentax, or anyone who is not interested in full frame. I am simply saying that it is something I am interested in. I don't think any of us can predict what will happen in the future with certainty.

I would have predicted that there would have been virtually no market for either the i-pod mini or the i-pad, but we all see how those worked out.
I hope Pentax does decide to make a FF, I just don't think it will happen at any point in the near future. Pentax has only recently returned to being a profitable company and with the future appearing to be headed towards mirror-less technology I think their resources are being used in other areas.

I'm not a Pentax fan boy. I don't care who's name is on the camera or lens that I am using as long as it works well for my needs. Pentax has a lot of things they need to do to strengthen their product offering and I personally think it starts with glass.

The only full frame that I think Pentax could really offer and make a splash with is a mirror-less model. They need to design a new line of glass anyway for mirror-less, so they might as well step up. Personally I hope that Pentax elects to use a different format that 3/2. IF you have to design all new lenses then format is not a limiting factor.
06-27-2011, 09:09 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
An interesting point. We've seen more new in cropped sensors lately. I wonder if Nikon is finding the market for a 2.5 lb body than costs $3-5k may not be as huge as expected.
FF roll outs have always happened on a more extended schedule than smaller formats, and the world economy + the Japanese tsunami have not helped that schedule much.

Nikon makes money selling FF-capable lenses for their existing base, irregardless of what bodies are currently out. The whole FF market is pretty stable and a money maker for Nikon and Canon - not so sure about Sony. (Sony provides a cautionary tale Pentax would need to heed if they wanted to move into FF.)
06-27-2011, 09:14 PM - 2 Likes   #28
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I'm tired, big day, instead of writing something new, I'll just paste what I wrote in a Q-related thread


(to anyone: please don't just scan what I wrote below and post some stock answers against FF - we have too many threads like that - please take the time to read and think about the points I make.)

I think the general mirrorless tier itself is probably going to emerge as the most competitive tier of all, especially when things like camera phones start getting better - start getting really good - and encroach that tier from below. Pentax may find itself pushed from the side by all the other mirrorless players (and there are more players in that tier than the DSLR tier) and pushed from below from apple, etc.

If Pentax puts too many eggs in that basket... they could end up regretting it. Especially if they enter it with the wrong product, and frankly I fear that the Q is the wrong product at the wrong price.

A FF move by Hoya can be seen as a strengthening of K-mount. Every lens they develop for FF will also be usable and work wonderfully on aps-c - those two tiers are actually part of the same silo, while 'Q' is a completely different silo. 'Q' is a spreading of resources - a shotgun approach, but the shotgun shell has only a couple pellets.

Hoya has the financial capability of placing Pentax in the FF tier with a unique product, a small-bodied (within reason) WR FF offering that has a line of small/brilliant/relatively-inexpensive primes to shoot with it and several weather-sealed primes and zooms. They would need to expand the lens line - part of the investment - but again, this doesn't happen in it's own silo.

An investment in FF filters down to the entire DSLR product line. Nikon showed how to make this work brilliantly - the ROI on a lot of it's R&D was spread down a tier (or two) over a couple generations. Their entire product line was enriched by this.

The FF and MFD tiers have the ability to survive above the fray below, because there will always be an ultimate upgrade market. They really can't be encroached by Vivitar, Apple, all the Android clones, even Samsung and Panasonic are too far away from that to really consider it.

The FF tier could actually be expanded if Pentax entered it with the right offering. Some existing K-mount users would upgrade, but you'd also get Olympus users, and a good many Canon, Nikon and Sony users would consider a jump if the product seemed to fit them better, especially if they're size-conscious. There would also be a % of FF shooters who would buy a smaller Pentax and a couple primes as a second FF body. Add to this a % of new buyers entering the market who may like what Pentax has and chooses to jump from whatever mirrorless product they have right into a smallish FF.

I think we're discounting the potential power of the new, really good camera phones and commodity-sensored mirrorless products to make the lower tiers a big, difficult mess for the traditional camera makers. It may come to pass that the only way they can distinguish themselves is to have product up in the FF tier and/or very high-end aps-c tier - MFD is a nice place to be as a symbolic thing only, IMO. I don't see how a market that small (and it's much smaller than FF) can sustain Pentax in any significant way.

'Q' takes resources away from an expansion of the aps-c lens product line, takes resources away from development of a Nikon-competetive AF module, takes resources away from an SDM replacement strategy... and probably contributes to pushing FF out to 2013, 2014... or never.

I characterize my wish for a FF body as a personal thing, because that's easy for people to relate to, and it's a quick way to get my point across in a forum. But it's more than that. I think it's a viable strategy to strengthen K-mount, strengthen the brand and build something that can't be washed away by whatever happens below.



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06-27-2011, 09:27 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by RXrenesis8 Quote
If you shoot M series lenses you could buy a Canon 5d (≈ $300) and a PK --> EOS adapter ($15-30).

Bam, Full Frame. I'm looking at this option right now...

I AM still hoping for a pentax FF though; There's really nothing else like those Sony Exmor sensors combined with these wonderful ergonomics...
Where can you get a 5d for 300 bucks? I would jump on that.
06-27-2011, 09:45 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
Where can you get a 5d for 300 bucks? I would jump on that.
agreed
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