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08-06-2011, 06:53 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
But those who want 1080p/24 video, in-body SR, PDAF as good as a D700, high FPS, screw drive, etc. FF, and then ask for a smaller body, are contradicting themselves.
I dunno. I'm surprised how small and lightweight my PZ-5n is. It's substantially smaller than my K-5, and yet manages to have the hardware built in to zip 2 frames of film by per second.

I suspect that Pentax can pack a FF sensor into a similarly or maybe even the same sized K-5 body.

Oh and I want the *1080p/30* video, full video AF, and video controls, 36 megapixels, fast screw drive, HSM, and 7fps in a full frame body.

I've also got a few lenses that wont work on FF. That'll make those lenses less expensive, when bought used, to those staying on APS-C.

But it's clear you don't want one. I can't fault you there. My 600mm becomes a 900mm on my k-5. I'll loose that (well except through cropping) on FF.

What I gain is an increase in resolution above the point of diffraction that we are facing now; well unless you're welling to shoot everything at no higher than F5.6 on your next model 25 megapixel sensor.

What I don't understand is why so many Pentax users are actively campaigning against a FF DLSR. This negatively impacts the campaign for those of us who want one. Everyone benefits in the long run, as APS-C users will still get a broader variety of glass to shoot with.

08-06-2011, 07:02 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
Oh and I want the *1080p/30* video, full video AF, and video controls, 36 megapixels, fast screw drive, HSM, and 7fps in a full frame body.
So modest. I want a lot more.
  • Video FullHDwide 2560x1080 60fps.
  • Videomode with a hi-framerate function up to 200 fps (or so).
  • Full resolution stills at 10 fps.
  • 6 megapixel jpg stills at 20 to 30 fps as LiveView function.
  • Full support for UHS-I in writing and image processing.
  • I'm okay with 24 megapixel, but more is good too.
  • Fast AF with tracking AF function.
  • Extended iso-settings from iso 25 to 102400.
  • Noise free images up to iso 3200.
08-06-2011, 07:12 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
What I don't understand is why so many Pentax users are actively campaigning against a FF DLSR.
We're not campaigning against it! We're simply pointing out why it might not be wise to get your hopes up. It's like playing the lottery. For someone to say, "You know...you might want to have a back-up plan in case you don't win" is not saying that you shouldn't enter the lottery and hope to win. Enter the lottery as often as you want...plan what you will do once you win...but to be realistic, you might want to also plan equally hard on what you'll do if you don't win.
08-06-2011, 07:41 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by alohadave Quote
90% of camera buyers are moms and dads who buy them to take snapshots of their kids and vacation pictures. They will rarely ever take the lens off the body, and will never buy a prime.
Sorry, highly disagree. Most moms and dads I see that are that inexperienced buy point and shoots. Almost every mom and dad I've seen at local schools photographing events have other lenses besides kit lenses on their DSLR. This means they are not just your casual shooter, and they remove the lowly kit lenses. In fact, I'd say that out of the dozens of DSLR users I've seen in public lately, I only noticed one to be still using a kit lens. Not sure where you're basing this stat, but I feel it's way off and I absolutely don't see 90% of people out on the street with kit lenses they won't remove.

In fact, I was just at a local aquarium a few days ago where it was full of moms and dads. The majority had point and shoot or bridge cameras, and the ones that had DSLRs, had lenses other than their kit lenses on the body. I didn't see one DSLR/kit lens combination out of the 8 or 10 DSLRs I saw. And for those 8-10 DSLRs, I saw about 45 point and shoots/non interchangeable lens cameras.


Last edited by K-9; 08-06-2011 at 07:48 AM.
08-06-2011, 08:05 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Almost every mom and dad I've seen at local schools photographing events have other lenses besides kit lenses on their DSLR. This means they are not just your casual shooter, and they remove the lowly kit lenses. In fact, I'd say that out of the dozens of DSLR users I've seen in public lately, I only noticed one to be still using a kit lens...In fact, I was just at a local aquarium a few days ago where it was full of moms and dads. The majority had point and shoot or bridge cameras, and the ones that had DSLRs, had lenses other than their kit lenses on the body. I didn't see one DSLR/kit lens combination out of the 8 or 10 DSLRs I saw.
Okay...you have some direct observation to relate. Be honest...how many of those folks were shooting prime lenses vs how many were shooting better zooms than just the kit lens?
08-06-2011, 08:07 AM   #186
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Top Selling cameras on Amazon.com

A point and shoot tops the list. 5 out of the top 10 are point and shoot cameras. They included video cameras, too, so it messes things up a bit, but the top still camera is a point and shoot.
08-06-2011, 08:10 AM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Okay...you have some direct observation to relate. Be honest...how many of those folks were shooting prime lenses vs how many were shooting better zooms than just the kit lens?
Yes, the majority were shooting upgraded zooms, but I still wouldn't directly relate that to the prime vs zoom debate, as these observations were strictly mom and dad camera users, who I do not feel make up the majority of DSLR buyers.
08-06-2011, 08:12 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Yes, the majority were shooting upgraded zooms, but I still wouldn't directly relate that to the prime vs zoom debate, as these observations were strictly mom and dad camera users, who I do not feel make up the majority of DSLR buyers.
Are you serious? Mom and pop users are definitely the majority of DSLR buyers! WE are the exeption...not the norm.

08-06-2011, 08:31 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Are you serious? Mom and pop users are definitely the majority of DSLR buyers! WE are the exeption...not the norm.
Do you have kids?? Are you at school functions?? Do you go to aquariums?? Have you been on vacation this summer to events that moms and dads are everywhere?? At each and every one of the above, I have seen 80% of the moms and dads using point and shoot and bridge cameras. I just said out of the 50+ camera users at the aquarium I was at, only 8-10 users had DSLRs. The last school outdoor event I was at, out of the 95 moms and dads with cameras, only about 10 had DSLRs, including myself. Sorry, spitting out your opinions holds no weight. I've shown you links to amazon that show point and shoots outsell DSLRs and I've given you numerous places I've been to that directly confirms the point and shoot moms and dads far, far outnumber the DSLR using moms and dads. Have you provided one link that shows the majority of moms and dads use DSLRS?
08-06-2011, 08:37 AM   #190
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Point and shoots are $100-$200 and DSLR's are $500+. You're not going to convince the majority of parents who know nothing about cameras, in this slow economy, that they have to go spend an extra $300 for an interchangeable lens camera they know nothing about. I do not see DSLRs taking over as the parents' preference over point and shoots/bridge cameras for several years, if it even happens at all.
08-06-2011, 08:55 AM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
...
What I don't understand is why so many Pentax users are actively campaigning against a FF DLSR. This negatively impacts the campaign for those of us who want one. Everyone benefits in the long run, as APS-C users will still get a broader variety of glass to shoot with.
My view:

1) Some simply don't see the business case for it. Every time I've see armchair analysis to support that, here and in other forums, it seems to suffer from two faults: A) It's a smart 18-month plan, but a shortsighted long-term plan for K-mount, or, lately, B) It applies directly to Pentax-standalone, not Pentax-Hoya and even less to Pentax-Ricoh - because the capital involved to make a FF push, and the ROI associated involves a lower percentage of revenue, thus less net risk to the parent organization. And a longish ROI (3-6 years) is less of a big deal if the expenditure is 1% of gross revenue (with Ricoh) than if it's something like 50% of gross value (Pentax Imaging-standalone.)

2) Some don't care about FF, have no intention of buying a FF camera, and feel that talk surrounding the issue is tiresome, because they think it doesn't in any way apply to them (yet it does - they share the same mount and will benefit directly from investment in it.)

3) Some actively campaign against it because they feel their aps-c-only lens investment will be devalued, or their top-o-line Pentax body will no longer be top-o-line, or both. There's an active anti-FF campaigner on dpreview who recently admitted to this - it surprised me, but made me admire his honesty.

(Some Anti's fit into two or more of these categories, etc. However the folks who simply say "It would be neat, might consider buying one, but doubt we'll ever see it" and move on are not in any of those categories, they're simply healthy sceptics. )


.


.

Last edited by jsherman999; 08-06-2011 at 09:20 AM.
08-06-2011, 08:59 AM   #192
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There was a rumor that Nikon was not going to produce any more low end DSLRs, such as the D3100. It is not totally out of the question that as FF prices drop, they may become the majority of the DSLR market, rather than the minority. Will they phase out APS-C sensors all together in anything other than P&S's? Only time will tell.
08-06-2011, 09:05 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Do you have kids??
Yes, I do.
QuoteQuote:
Are you at school functions??
Yes, I am!
QuoteQuote:
Do you go to aquariums??
Not only am I at aquariums, I'm booking field trips there for the largest camera club in our state! Everyone who showed up shot zooms. We didn't see a single person shooting primes during our visit. Not a definitive answer...but that's what we saw.
QuoteQuote:
Have you been on vacation this summer to events that moms and dads are everywhere??
Yes, I have. I saw no primes in use anywhere. I really question whether you've attended any of these events, frankly, and are being honest with your answers.
QuoteQuote:
At each and every one of the above, I have seen 80% of the moms and dads using point and shoot and bridge cameras. I just said out of the 50+ camera users at the aquarium I was at, only 8-10 users had DSLRs. The last school outdoor event I was at, out of the 95 moms and dads with cameras, only about 10 had DSLRs, including myself.
I understand that. How many of those 10 were shooting prime lenses? Was there even one person? I suspect not.

QuoteQuote:
Sorry, spitting out your opinions holds no weight.
I know that. It holds no more weight than yours. I'm just stating what I see.

QuoteQuote:
I've shown you links to amazon that show point and shoots outsell DSLRs and I've given you numerous places I've been to that directly confirms the point and shoot moms and dads far, far outnumber the DSLR using moms and dads. Have you provided one link that shows the majority of moms and dads use DSLRS?
What the hell does this have to do with the opinion that most DSLR users are more interested in zooms vs primes? LOL I gather that you like primes while most folks like zooms. I get that. I've been there for 20+ years. I'm a prime lens guy, but I'm not under the impression that most DSLR owners are shooting primes. Dude, look around you!
08-06-2011, 09:06 AM   #194
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^
Sorry, you are confusing the prime vs zoom argument with the argument I had with another poster about majority of moms and dads using DSLRs over point and shoots. All my points were about the latter isssue, and all your replies above are about the former issue! As you'll see, I quoted your point about moms and dads being the majority of DSLR buyers. I wasn't actually touching on anything about primes in that post you just responded to.
08-06-2011, 09:14 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
^
Sorry, you are confusing the prime vs zoom argument with the argument I had with another poster about majority of moms and dads using DSLRs over point and shoots. All my points were about the latter isssue, and all your replies above are about the former issue! As you'll see, I quoted your point about moms and dads being the majority of DSLR buyers. I wasn't actually touching on anything about primes in that post you just responded to.
Okay...gotcha. Sorry. I went and took a shower, then came back to this discussion. I DO agree that the majority of "mom & pop" shooters are using point & shoots. However, I do think that "mom & pop" shooters also make up the majority of DSLR owners. We on this forum (and in my camera club, I believe) aren't representative of most owners. We represent the most hard-core users.
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