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08-15-2011, 10:04 AM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The problem is that if you increase the number on sensels you are also increasing the space needed for structure and circuitry.

The D3s =12MP and the D3x = 25MP. The larger more efficient sensels of the D3s outperform the smaller sensels of the D3x in every category.

Do you have a real world example of "Four small sensels capture as much dynamic range as one sensel four times the size of one small one."? Which 2 sensor can you use to demonstrate this?
Well, the K5 certainly outperforms earlier sensors with regard to dynamic range, while having smaller pixels (16 megapixels versus, say, the 10 megapixels on the K10). Dxo doesn't have the k100 listed, so hard to say the dynamic range comparison there, but I wouldn't warrant to say there are a couple of stops improvement from the k100 to the K5.

08-15-2011, 10:10 AM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Macario, you really like the MZ-S, do you? But you shouldn't ask Pentax to commit suicide, just because of this. Yes, suicide is what I'd call making an obsolete by design camera.
How about the DA* 55mm f/1.4, DA* 200mm f/2.8, DA* 300mm f/4, DA* 60-250 f/4? How about the D FA 100mm f/2.8 macro WR? Pentax would have to scrap them and make new versions, with aperture rings - that cost money and time, and will anger their customers. I'd be so happy not being able to use my DA* 60-250 that I'd switch to Nikon the same day; and I assure you, lots of people would follow.
How about using APS-C lenses in cropped mode? People are expecting this, and won't easily accept Pentax just had a nostalgia crisis at their expense.
Give me a single reason why Pentax should go back to the MZ-S interface; so far there are lots of arguments against it. Until you do, it won't happen.

About the shutter: there is no doubt that it must be changed; but it's not like MZ-S components are still in production anyway. Should they go to the extremes just to reuse some old, underperforming components? That's insane.
Yep I do really like the MZ-S. But one argument is (and I know a lot of people would like that) is that you can use legacy glass without stop down metering.
But even if they do bring it out again, there have to be alot of improvements to be made (internally) Also they could easily adapt it to be able to use Av through the body (like it is done with the Z-20). See, not that hard to adapt the MZ-S to todays standards to use lenses without an A-ring
08-15-2011, 10:54 AM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Well, the K5 certainly outperforms earlier sensors with regard to dynamic range, while having smaller pixels (16 megapixels versus, say, the 10 megapixels on the K10). Dxo doesn't have the k100 listed, so hard to say the dynamic range comparison there, but I wouldn't warrant to say there are a couple of stops improvement from the k100 to the K5.
Yes, but you are comparing old tech(2006) CCD sensor to a modern Sony CMOS with on-chip A/D conversion.

Nikon D3s & D3x are a good comparison because the sensors are made by the same company and are very close to the same age. D3s outperforms the D3x in everything except resolution.
08-15-2011, 11:24 AM   #334
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According to Sonyalpharumors (most reliable rumors by their grading), there may be even three FF Sonys coming next year. I wish Ricoh/Pentax takes a hint.

08-15-2011, 11:43 AM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Oh, please! Stop being so dramatic! Right now, Pentax has NO FF camera. Anyone who wants FF is going to have to switch to Nikon/Canon anyway, aren't they? And by the way...it wouldn't be the MZ-D that was incompatible with the DA* lenses...it's the lenses. They were designed to be incompatible with past FF cameras that didn't offer in-body aperture control.
I'm being realistic, not dramatic - yes, I would jump ship if Pentax would be stupid enough to do it and yes, I wouldn't be the only one. But I'm 100% confident they won't.
A DSLR with MZ-S interface would be incompatible with lenses without aperture rings. With most current production lenses. I can't understand why would anyone believe that is acceptable... and no, it's not on the same level as a lens not being compatible with some out of production film cameras.

Macario, sorry but again, that's not a valid argument. Full compatibility with K/M lenses and dual wheel interface are not mutually exclusive - on the contrary, there where cameras that had both.
You're suggesting using a single wheel interface (like on low-end models) to what would be the top of the range; yeah, that would make us happy. Why unnecessarily cripple the camera, when the dual wheel works just fine? Do you have a single argument, just one, about why a reworked MZ-S would be preferable instead of a scaled up K-5 (or similar, modern design)? Not just "they can make it work with some limitations which may scare customers away".

Whatever; it's a lost cause. I'm amazed how all my arguments doesn't matter, confronted with wet dreams and nostalgia. Dream about whatever you like, dream at expensive but crippled cameras; but don't get mad at Pentax when you'll realize it will never happen.
So I'll restate my original point: that drawing is unrelated to the MZ-S - and you can take it as a fact - and get out of this silly dispute.
Have a nice day/night.
08-15-2011, 11:44 AM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Nikon D3s & D3x are a good comparison because the sensors are made by the same company and are very close to the same age. D3s outperforms the D3x in everything except resolution.
according to dxo mark sensors d3x k5 d7000 vastly outperform the one from d3 d3s or d700 in respect with dynamic range....
08-15-2011, 11:45 AM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Yes, but you are comparing old tech(2006) CCD sensor to a modern Sony CMOS with on-chip A/D conversion.

Nikon D3s & D3x are a good comparison because the sensors are made by the same company and are very close to the same age. D3s outperforms the D3x in everything except resolution.
Not sure what you are saying. According to Dxo mark the D3x has better dynamic range than the D3s by a stop and half. I haven't shot with either camera, so I can't really comment otherwise. Iso shooting does seem to go to the D3x by half a stop.

In general, new technology not only brings better dynamic range/high iso shooting, it also brings more pixels and by definition smaller pixels. So far, the smaller pixels have not stopped the improvements in the other areas.
08-15-2011, 12:05 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm being realistic, not dramatic - yes, I would jump ship if Pentax would be stupid enough to do it and yes, I wouldn't be the only one. But I'm 100% confident they won't.
A DSLR with MZ-S interface would be incompatible with lenses without aperture rings. With most current production lenses. I can't understand why would anyone believe that is acceptable... and no, it's not on the same level as a lens not being compatible with some out of production film cameras.

Macario, sorry but again, that's not a valid argument. Full compatibility with K/M lenses and dual wheel interface are not mutually exclusive - on the contrary, there where cameras that had both.
You're suggesting using a single wheel interface (like on low-end models) to what would be the top of the range; yeah, that would make us happy. Why unnecessarily cripple the camera, when the dual wheel works just fine? Do you have a single argument, just one, about why a reworked MZ-S would be preferable instead of a scaled up K-5 (or similar, modern design)? Not just "they can make it work with some limitations which may scare customers away".

Whatever; it's a lost cause. I'm amazed how all my arguments doesn't matter, confronted with wet dreams and nostalgia. Dream about whatever you like, dream at expensive but crippled cameras; but don't get mad at Pentax when you'll realize it will never happen.
So I'll restate my original point: that drawing is unrelated to the MZ-S - and you can take it as a fact - and get out of this silly dispute.
Have a nice day/night.
Well there is already a difference in how we deal with the fact. I am saying i like the MZ-S interface, and I adres I. You are talking about us, while you should be talking about yourself, what you want to see in a camera.
And Like I already said before, I am not waiting for a FF camera, I am perfectly happy with my K-7. SO if Pentax never comes out with a FF camera, to me nothing is lost. I just said, if they would come out with a FF camera with the MZ-S interface, then I would be very tempted to buy it. I never said, I would buy it. And no, a camera with the MZ-S interface doesn't have to be incompatible with the DA lenses. Like I said, there are ways to do it.
Do I personaly think they will make it? No I don't. I just said whay I like, never said that they have to make it. Cause I am not personally waiting for FF ( I have enough FF pentax cameras at home anyway)
And where does it say that top end camera's have to have Dual wheel (don't get me wrong, I love the dual wheels on my K-7, works fine), is it because most Canikon have it? Yes, when implemented in lower end camera's single wheel I do not think is nice. But there are more than one way to implement things. Like I said, it could be done in the way it was done on the Z-20. Personally I would prefere that over dual wheel. But that is a personal preference. All I am writing has to do with personal preferences, and that is my arguement for reviving the MZ-S as digital. And unless you have done a big survey among the whole scale of pentax users, you should always state your argumens with I, me or mine instead of us.

08-15-2011, 12:17 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm being realistic, not dramatic - yes, I would jump ship if Pentax would be stupid enough to do it and yes, I wouldn't be the only one.
When you threaten to jump ship because Pentax doesn't make a camera that will work with lenses that were never intended for that camera...yes, you're being dramatic, not realistic. Who promised you that your 60-250 is a FF lens? Pentax? I don't think so.
08-15-2011, 12:23 PM   #340
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duck

QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
According to Sonyalpharumors (most reliable rumors by their grading), there may be even three FF Sonys coming next year. I wish Ricoh/Pentax takes a hint.
Those SR5-level rumors can't be correct! Everyone knows Sony has seen the folly of their FF ways. Plus, Nikon has told them to stop selling FF cameras!



( )



"...(SR5) Sony lobbying for the next FF cameras (to be released in 2012)

...that Sony is already “lobbying” for the next fullframe cameras. Sony wants the dealer to push the Sony products also because their upcoming fullframe cameras will be even more amazing than the A77. I have been told that Sony is currently talking with all the major dealers to redefine the marketing strategy. I will give you some concrete details about the strategy as soon as I can. The only good news that I can give you now is that there will be more new fullframe cameras than I thought. I now heard about three different fullframe camera coming in 2012!

There has been no Sony A900 price drop yet because Sony plans to release the next FF cameras in 6-9 months only. It would be to early to clear the stocks now.
"



.
08-15-2011, 12:55 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Those SR5-level rumors can't be correct! Everyone knows Sony has seen the folly of their FF ways. Plus, Nikon has told them to stop selling FF cameras!



( )



"...(SR5) Sony lobbying for the next FF cameras (to be released in 2012)

...that Sony is already “lobbying” for the next fullframe cameras. Sony wants the dealer to push the Sony products also because their upcoming fullframe cameras will be even more amazing than the A77. I have been told that Sony is currently talking with all the major dealers to redefine the marketing strategy. I will give you some concrete details about the strategy as soon as I can. The only good news that I can give you now is that there will be more new fullframe cameras than I thought. I now heard about three different fullframe camera coming in 2012!

There has been no Sony A900 price drop yet because Sony plans to release the next FF cameras in 6-9 months only. It would be to early to clear the stocks now.
"



.
What happens if Sony tells Nikon to go buy sensors from Can(n)on.
08-15-2011, 01:01 PM   #342
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Macario, I'll let you prove the Earth is flat and sitting on a big turtle, that the pigs flies and people with the aforementioned FF compatible lenses would be actually happy not being able to use them on a $2500-3000 body.
Until you'll show me one reason why compatibility should be broken, good bye.

QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
When you threaten to jump ship because Pentax doesn't make a camera that will work with lenses that were never intended for that camera...yes, you're being dramatic, not realistic. Who promised you that your 60-250 is a FF lens? Pentax? I don't think so.
"Threaten"? Nonsense; you're talking as if such a thing might actually happen. I'm merely stating one reason why it won't - losing customers by stupidly breaking compatibility. How is that a threat?
Who promised the D FA 100mm WR is a FF lens? Yes, Pentax. No, it doesn't have an aperture ring. The aperture ring is gone for ever - and that, FYI, is reality.
08-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Macario, I'll let you prove the Earth is flat and sitting on a big turtle, that the pigs flies and people with the aforementioned FF compatible lenses would be actually happy not being able to use them on a $2500-3000 body.
Until you'll show me one reason why compatibility should be broken, good bye.


"Threaten"? Nonsense; you're talking as if such a thing might actually happen. I'm merely stating one reason why it won't - losing customers by stupidly breaking compatibility. How is that a threat?
Who promised the D FA 100mm WR is a FF lens? Yes, Pentax. No, it doesn't have an aperture ring. The aperture ring is gone for ever - and that, FYI, is reality.
I wonder if you do not get what I wrote, or you just simply ignore it on purpose because you want to make your statement and that is the only statement that count's.
If you would really read what I wrote, you would see that I wrote that there are ways to make lenses work on the body. So no lens would be wasted.
08-15-2011, 01:59 PM   #344
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If Pentax would make a FF camera, I would immediately buy it. I would only need to buy a 135mm and fish eye. The optical quality would be much superior over what I have now: the 21 is much better than 15Ltd, the 31Ltd is only slightly better than 21 actually, they are both great lenses, but the 31Ltd is better 31mm lens than 21 on crop, the 43Ltd and the 50 are both stellar performers and better normal lenses than 31Ltd, the 77Ltd and FA* 85 are both stellar portrait lenses and both better than 50 on crop

Then I would buy something like 24-70.

Last edited by Emacs; 08-15-2011 at 02:04 PM.
08-15-2011, 05:49 PM   #345
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This thread has crossed my 20 page threshold that I usually reserve for lens clubs. If I continue to read it through 40 pages, do I get my FF Pentax?
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