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View Poll Results: Will there be a Pentax Full Frame camera on PhotoKina 2012?
YES 6625.78%
NO 19074.22%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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08-17-2011, 11:30 AM   #46
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Ricoh wants you to want more lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by abacus07 Quote
the problem with reintroducing a full frame camera is the endless complaints we would hear from the buyers and would be buyers on this forum.

Why don't they bring back or design X lens? There are already enough of these and Pentax is only focused on one lens lineup right now.

That's the 'problem'?

If Pentax doesn't introduce a FF camera, those complainers will be complaining about not being able to spend their money fast enough on Canon or Nikon lenses, vs. Pentax lenses.

Ricoh would want people to be online asking for more, more, more. The 'want' seed gets carried on the virtual winds that way, and the LBA bug remains healthy and virulent.





.


Last edited by jsherman999; 08-17-2011 at 11:52 AM.
08-17-2011, 01:17 PM   #47
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Why would Pentax reduce the size of the 645D sensor to FF? I'd recommend they stick with the larger sensor.
08-17-2011, 01:17 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by builttospill Quote
But isn't this the point of FF? If so many users are content with APS-C, imagine their delight with the incredible IQ and resolution of a new FF camera. It would obviously be superior to APS-C.
Your comment can only make sense in one of these two scenarios:
1. General users are so happy with APS-C IQ that they want FF to get even better IQ.
2. General users are not happy with APS-C IQ, therefore they want FF.

Let me do some reasonings here:

For 1: if it is true, you should have seen more users are buying FF Canikons than APS-C Canikons. But that doesn't happen. Why, there's a balance due to cost and amount of perceptible IQ difference. That's my point.

For 2: I leave all here to debate whether we're happy with APS-C IQ. But I am.
08-17-2011, 01:31 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by hyyz Quote
Your comment can only make sense in one of these two scenarios:
1. General users are so happy with APS-C IQ that they want FF to get even better IQ.
2. General users are not happy with APS-C IQ, therefore they want FF.
Or 3. General users and above-average users want to take their photographs to the next level; FF is that next level.
3b. General users and above-average users want to take their photographs to the next level, but the next level up is currently the 645D and it's a little much for most people in this category; FF meets this group's wants/needs.

They are in between "happy" and "not happy", which I think more people would fit in than scenario 2.

08-17-2011, 01:32 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
Why would Pentax reduce the size of the 645D sensor to FF? I'd recommend they stick with the larger sensor.
They wouldn't. The current sensor in the 645D is a crop sensor. I wasn't talking about reducing it, but enlarging it.
08-17-2011, 02:53 PM   #51
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Or 4: people with just to much spare cash looking for something that others don't have.
08-17-2011, 08:30 PM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by builttospill Quote
General users and above-average users want to take their photographs to the next level; FF is that next level.
For a lot of photographers, FF's a rather expensive way to take their photography to the next level, particularly during a worsening recession when far too many consumers in the world's biggest market are swamped by debt. For many photographers, the advantages of FF are not worth the cost.

When the Nikon D3 first came out, the distance between FF and APS-C really did seem quite significant, and predictions of the imminent demise of APS-C were not uncommon. Since then, APS-C has closed the gap and cameras like the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D7000 or now so good that many of us no longer care about the IQ advantages of FF.

The desire for improving one's photography by buying into more expensive systems can easily turn into a kind of madness. Who's to say that these people who imagine that their photography will be better with FF are going to remain satisfied with FF? They may be pleased for a while, but sooner or later, that insatiable IQ beast will have to be fed once again, and the mad scramble for increasingly smaller increases in IQ will commence again.

In the meantime, practical-minded photographers will continue to make great pictures with APS-C cameras.
08-17-2011, 09:19 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
For a lot of photographers, FF's a rather expensive way to take their photography to the next level, particularly during a worsening recession when far too many consumers in the world's biggest market are swamped by debt. For many photographers, the advantages of FF are not worth the cost.

When the Nikon D3 first came out, the distance between FF and APS-C really did seem quite significant, and predictions of the imminent demise of APS-C were not uncommon. Since then, APS-C has closed the gap and cameras like the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D7000 or now so good that many of us no longer care about the IQ advantages of FF.

The desire for improving one's photography by buying into more expensive systems can easily turn into a kind of madness. Who's to say that these people who imagine that their photography will be better with FF are going to remain satisfied with FF? They may be pleased for a while, but sooner or later, that insatiable IQ beast will have to be fed once again, and the mad scramble for increasingly smaller increases in IQ will commence again.

In the meantime, practical-minded photographers will continue to make great pictures with APS-C cameras.
I agree with everything in your post Greg and I think it was well said. The difference I still maintain comes from two areas. First, there's more to FF than just IQ. Second, seeing the difference from APS-C and FF when the D3 was released and how far technology has come since then with APS-C, I have a hard time imagining the difference with a new FF sensor won't be just as incredible.

That being said please understand I've never been one who has to have the latest and greatest. I'm still more than pleased with my K10D's images and that camera never fails to get the job done well. While the K-5 is a nice camera, and so were all its precursors after the K10D, they haven't yet given me enough reason to buy a new body. A FF would justify a practical upgrade for me.

08-17-2011, 09:52 PM   #54
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"No" - except may be some most bizarre rumors, I don't see any evidence towards the FF Pentax camera body.
08-17-2011, 10:05 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
When the Nikon D3 first came out, the distance between FF and APS-C really did seem quite significant, and predictions of the imminent demise of APS-C were not uncommon. Since then, APS-C has closed the gap and cameras like the Pentax K-5 and Nikon D7000 or now so good that many of us no longer care about the IQ advantages of FF.
Well, current APS-C cameras approached old FF cameras in high ISO's. However look at resolution. I took example from photozone.de Nikkor 85mm f/1.8 D lens tests:
On 10 Mpix APS-C camera resolution @f/5.6 is 2188
On 16 Mpix APS-C camera resolution @f/5.6 is 2716
On 12 Mpix FF camera resolution @f/5.6 is 3779.

I am not good at optics and can't explain why, however it is solid evidence, that FF cameras, even with lower resolution sensors, are able to capture more resolution than their APS-C counterparts.

Also don't forget that K-5, D7000 are relatively very new cameras with excellent sensors. FF cameras still use old sensors. Therefore the gap is narrowed. When new FF cameras, using the same sensor technology, will be released late this year/next year, the gap again will be widened a lot and we will say again "Wow, my K-5's ISO800 is worse than ISO6400 on this camera!"
08-18-2011, 01:28 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edvinas Quote
Also don't forget that K-5, D7000 are relatively very new cameras with excellent sensors. FF cameras still use old sensors. Therefore the gap is narrowed. When new FF cameras, using the same sensor technology, will be released late this year/next year, the gap again will be widened a lot and we will say again "Wow, my K-5's ISO800 is worse than ISO6400 on this camera!"
+1 on this. I think we will be amazed over the coming months (or early 2012) when new camera's are coming.
08-18-2011, 03:40 AM   #57
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Edvinas, of course Moore's law is still upon us. The question here is when the development of the gear actually outruns the capability of statistically average photographer who's using the gear. No offense or pun intended. It occurs to me that personally I am not going to ever use great many features of my K-5. Likewise the sensor tech - I doubt that with my gear (being more or less the top Pentax is offering - FA limiteds, etc) I (as a photog) would be able to extract the most.

Just looked at A3-sized museum framed print of a photo I made with K-7 more than a year ago - looking really good. Now - K-5 is a good step up from K-7 in terms of sensor tech. Do I want more - possibly. Does it mean I am going to (automatically) upgrade to the next Pentax camera - very unlikely - the very convincing evidence will have to be presented first.
08-18-2011, 03:43 AM   #58
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RonHendriks1966, I ought to respectfully disagree. Well, not really disagree. I think I might want to add a clarification here - the geeks in us or spec gurus will be amazed - like 40 MPix FF sensor with dynamic range of 2 stops more than that of K-5 allowing 10 FPS in electronics - that would be quite a feast, would it not? It is however very unlikely that 99% of us will be able to produce prints (A3 size and bigger) that will actually take advantage of these MPix, stops and FPSs... I know I wouldn't...
08-18-2011, 05:37 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
RonHendriks1966, I ought to respectfully disagree. Well, not really disagree. I think I might want to add a clarification here - the geeks in us or spec gurus will be amazed - like 40 MPix FF sensor with dynamic range of 2 stops more than that of K-5 allowing 10 FPS in electronics - that would be quite a feast, would it not? It is however very unlikely that 99% of us will be able to produce prints (A3 size and bigger) that will actually take advantage of these MPix, stops and FPSs... I know I wouldn't...
Dude, the point of bigger in λ times sensor is the fact you will get around λ times sharper (more detailed) shots, and that's all. So you automatically become about λ times better photographer with such a camera

The scheme is very simple: if you can get 80% of your APS-C camera capabilities, you would get the same 80% of the FF one, but due to IQ FF superiority you will get better shots.

Last edited by Emacs; 08-18-2011 at 11:00 AM.
08-18-2011, 05:52 AM   #60
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My understanding is that the thread was peoples guesses about whether or not Pentax would release a full frame 35mm sensored camera and not whether or not we want one or, whether or not it would be smaller than competitors, sharper than APS-C etc.

Obviously we have no crystal ball about shifts in the focus under Ricoh, but it seemed unlikely until the sale of Pentax that full frame was in the cards. Not sure about now, but I still voted no.
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