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View Poll Results: Will there be a Pentax Full Frame camera on PhotoKina 2012?
YES 6625.78%
NO 19074.22%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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08-18-2011, 08:09 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
RonHendriks1966, I ought to respectfully disagree. Well, not really disagree. I think I might want to add a clarification here - the geeks in us or spec gurus will be amazed - like 40 MPix FF sensor with dynamic range of 2 stops more than that of K-5 allowing 10 FPS in electronics - that would be quite a feast, would it not? It is however very unlikely that 99% of us will be able to produce prints (A3 size and bigger) that will actually take advantage of these MPix, stops and FPSs... I know I wouldn't...
Some time ago I stumbled upon a group of senior photographersclub from Amsterdam. Al living in the centre and al 70+ of age. They had one poor member, carrying a D700 and the rest was 1Ds or D3 or D3x. Just on a strawl taking pictures of the countryside, cows and grasses.

I think a few of them would love to buy a Pentax K-1 FF camera, just to have something new.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My understanding is that the thread was peoples guesses about whether or not Pentax would release a full frame 35mm sensored camera and not whether or not we want one or, whether or not it would be smaller than competitors, sharper than APS-C etc.

Obviously we have no crystal ball about shifts in the focus under Ricoh, but it seemed unlikely until the sale of Pentax that full frame was in the cards. Not sure about now, but I still voted no.
Good to read that you are thinking that it might even get reality under Ricoh's flag.

08-18-2011, 09:15 AM   #62
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Whether Ricoh decides to develop an FF camera may be a valid question, I doubt that we will see one in 2012. They should fill in the gaps in the lens lineup first. Rushing a FF camera to market so they can join the club would not be a very good business decision. They still need to make lenses for the thing. Pentax can't keep up with lens demand now. There is almost always a thread running about backorders and long waits for some of the more popular lenses. I had to wait 3 weeks to get a DA 15 this spring. We won't see it because Pentax CAN'T produce it at this time and farming out production to a sub-contractor wouldn't be wise either.
08-18-2011, 09:23 AM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
RonHendriks1966, I ought to respectfully disagree. Well, not really disagree. I think I might want to add a clarification here - the geeks in us or spec gurus will be amazed - like 40 MPix FF sensor with dynamic range of 2 stops more than that of K-5 allowing 10 FPS in electronics - that would be quite a feast, would it not? It is however very unlikely that 99% of us will be able to produce prints (A3 size and bigger) that will actually take advantage of these MPix, stops and FPSs... I know I wouldn't...
Well, I think everyone would benefit from increased dynamic range.

Personally, I would also would benefit from three additional things:
  1. I would not need to rely on flash in churches anymore
  2. I would be able to get full potential from my FA Limited lenses
  3. I would be able to use my FA Limited lenses at FOV which they were designed for

I don't really think that those points are for spec geeks, right? I don't really care for megapixel and FPS increase.

Last edited by Edvinas; 08-18-2011 at 10:23 PM.
08-19-2011, 03:50 AM   #64
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Emacs, you're quite wrong, sir. E.g. shooting handheld will eat up most of that advantage that FF allegedly has over cropped sensor in sharpness. However, if you judge goodness of a photographer by LPP their gear produces or by MTF graphs, then indeed you're perfectly right and power to you.

08-19-2011, 03:53 AM   #65
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RonHendriks1966, certainly if Pentax introduces a FF camera to the market, it will be sold in good numbers, that goes without saying. Unless, naturally, it has some major QC/pricing issues and flops.
08-19-2011, 04:01 AM   #66
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Edvinas:

1. Do you still have to use flash in churches with K-5? Presently K-5 seems to have one of the widest d.r. sensors/assemblies/picture engines there are out there...

2. I am not certain what kind of potential you're talking about? Not as a pun or offense - I really don't understand you. Are you trying to say that at this moment you have managed to extract absolutely everything your gear has to offer? If so, then perhaps a 645D would be a better step up, simply because the difference between cropped sensor and 645D is so much bigger.

3. That may be right. I am not entirely certain people would be as ecstatic about their FA limited lenses (I have all three of them) towards the (extreme) edges of the frame. It seems to me that these lenses were designed before modern DSLR cameras came out, so we may be or may be not up to some unpleasant or pleasant surprises.

Some time ago I had a hands on opportunity to compare Pentax K-7 and Sony A850. I wrote a blog entry about that. Prior to that I was very much pro FF cameras as I thought they would offer some significant advantages to the photographer by means of bigger sensor, "proper" AOV of the lenses, etc. Then came my Minoltian friend from Washington DC and we had spent some quality time together shooting and talking and generally having great time. In a nutshell, A850 is a better camera than K-7, but not by order of magnitude like some (including myself in the past) would try to present it. Further, when K-5 came along I have started to realize that personally (YMMV, obviously) I am getting to the plateau level of my technical skills, so that of course certain improvements would help, but not in a way of a new killer feature or a deal breaker.

Given the link to that article and a link to my blog in my signature you're cordially invited to have a look. It will also allow you to build an opinion about me as a photog and hence the applicability of my opinion to your situation.
08-19-2011, 05:36 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
...if Pentax introduces a FF camera to the market, it will be sold in good numbers, that goes without saying.
It only "goes without saying" if we ignore reality. What constitutes good numbers? As it is, Pentax has not only been unable to get their products in the large discount stores, but they've also been bumped out of many, many stores which specifically cater to photography! I live in the largest city in our state...we have one camera store in our city and it no longer carries Pentax. How screwed up is that? Pentax has a severe marketing problem and that is going to hamper any future moves they may make.
08-19-2011, 06:07 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Pentax has a severe marketing problem and that is going to hamper any future moves they may make.
i hope Ricoh will correct that. it's a huge company with a lot of money and when i see how good they are in selling copier, maybe they can do something for the imaging division of Pentax ?

08-19-2011, 08:31 AM   #69
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+1 for me : i doubt Ricoh will take this move to FF so early, without having made their own thorough diagnosys of the market versus Pentax's real ressources and priorities...
Moreover, if the question is "will there be a Pentax FF body", it means it is at least a prototype, which in my opinion noway can be built in this so short period of time btw october 2011 and the next kina.
But i would love it !
08-19-2011, 09:32 AM   #70
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I get the point of the question but A: Only Pentax can answer the question and B: your poll is really incomplete. It Should be:

Yes-Don't care about a FF camera
Yes-Do care about a FF camera
No-Don't care about a FF camera
No-Do care about a FF camera

You can put me down for the third option above.

08-19-2011, 01:21 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Emacs, you're quite wrong, sir. E.g. shooting handheld will eat up most of that advantage that FF allegedly has over cropped sensor in sharpness.
LOL you seem to be the person who loves to talk too much. So you insist the fact I can shoot with 31Ltd at 1/60 without noticeable blur with APS-C doesn't imply I can shoot with the similar exposure without the blur at FF?
Sir, it's an epic BS
08-19-2011, 02:06 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Dude, the point of bigger in λ times sensor is the fact you will get around λ times sharper (more detailed) shots, and that's all. So you automatically become about λ times better photographer with such a camera

The scheme is very simple: if you can get 80% of your APS-C camera capabilities, you would get the same 80% of the FF one, but due to IQ FF superiority you will get better shots.
Yep you are right in theory, except you are forgetting one thing. FF will be sharper, at 100% crop. But well, in daily life, that will not be the case. If you constantly crop out a part of a picture, and therefore show 100% crop pictures. You are either not a very good photographer, or you shoot in very difficult circumstances and have no other option.

And even when printed, the bigger you print, the further away you have to be to look at the photo properly. (but most pictures are looked on screen these days anyway, and well you will be looking at the photo at 50% or less) So the advantage of sharpness is lost there.

These days the only reason to go FF is shallower DOF (but you have the 645D for that) and bigger FOV (again the 645D). And to say that it is not an upgrade from APS-C (as some will reply like that) to go to 645D because it doesn't have the K-mount is like saying that going from a BMW 3 series to a BMW 5 series is not an upgrade because they have different chassis
08-19-2011, 09:36 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
LOL you seem to be the person who loves to talk too much. So you insist the fact I can shoot with 31Ltd at 1/60 without noticeable blur with APS-C doesn't imply I can shoot with the similar exposure without the blur at FF?
Sir, it's an epic BS
You got me wrong. But do I want to try to explain? Most certainly not.
08-19-2011, 11:13 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
...
These days the only reason to go FF is shallower DOF (but you have the 645D for that) and bigger FOV (again the 645D).
Also, better high-ISO/noise performance, bigger viewfinder, and the superb AF performance that usually comes with those bodies. Also it's more accurate to say 'more DOF control at equiv FOVs and apertures' than simply 'shallower DOF', because there are just as many shooting situations where an aps- combo will have shallower DOF than FF.

Re 645D... I don't think you'd be able to have very good luck tracking your 3-year old running through a dim living room with the 645D - it's AF module is really not up to par. It's not meant to be a do-everything-well workhorse tool quite like a FF body - closer to an excellent still-portrait/landscape/advertisement specialty tool. Also I suspect the D4 is going to surpass it in several IQ areas when it appears (and blow it away in shot-shot performance, of course - but the D700 already does that.)

Then there's the anemic 645D lens selection - but the few new lenses that do exist seem to serve the landscape/still-portrait application well enough for now.

QuoteQuote:
And to say that it is not an upgrade from APS-C (as some will reply like that) to go to 645D because it doesn't have the K-mount is like saying that going from a BMW 3 series to a BMW 5 series is not an upgrade because they have different chassis
It isn't a direct upgrade from the aps-c Pentax tier any more than buying a D700, D3 or Canon 1DSII would be, because they all have different mounts than your aps-c Pentax. It just happens to share a Pentax name. (You may be able to use some flash between aps-c Pentax and 645D.)
08-19-2011, 11:49 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
Yep you are right in theory, except you are forgetting one thing. FF will be sharper, at 100% crop. But well, in daily life, that will not be the case. If you constantly crop out a part of a picture, and therefore show 100% crop pictures. You are either not a very good photographer, or you shoot in very difficult circumstances and have no other option.
You doesn't seem to understand what are you talking about
I'm talking about the whole picture, not about the 100% crop.

QuoteQuote:
These days the only reason to go FF is shallower DOF (but you have the 645D for that) and bigger FOV (again the 645D). And to say that it is not an upgrade from APS-C (as some will reply like that) to go to 645D because it doesn't have the K-mount is like saying that going from a BMW 3 series to a BMW 5 series is not an upgrade because they have different chassis
I can easily pay $3k-$4k for a FF body. And will have about the same coverage what I have now with the exception of 110-135mm which is covered now by 77Ltd and FA* 85 (not a big deal, I prefer wider angles) with much better IQ (Distagon 21 is much better than 15Ltd, the 31Ltd is better than Distagon as a ≈31mm lens, the 43Ltd is a fantastic gem which I prefer to the 31Ltd on APS-C, the 77Ltd is much better 77mm lens than the A 50 f1.2 on APS-C, etc).
But 645D will cost me about $15000 (the price in Europe and Russia) for just a body, then I will have to buy lenses. So the price will raise over the $18000 at least.
But in reality the difference in IQ between high MP FF isn't as as large as the the difference between APS-C and FF. When the 645D will move to the real 60x45 sensor things will change, but it's in future.
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