Pentax Full Frame Poll

eddie1960 · 08-24-2011, 11:17 AM

The amount of arguement against Full frame amazes me. Some people obviously want a FF camera, whether their reasons are valid or even correct matters not.
Personally If one comes out I know I will eventually buy it (probably instead of a K5 ultimately). The if you want Ff go canikon doesn't wash. Lots of the people who want FF also have a good amount invested in the Pentax brand, why should they have to run 2 systems. Canikon owners and Sony owners don't have to do this and neither ultimately should Pentax users. I agree the DOF arguement doesn't wash for me (if i really want DOF I'd shoot with my MF). Good wides and UWA are a good reason for FF in itself (and yep Pentax may have to launch a new lens or 2 to compete)
Ultimately I think it will come down the pipeline whether you want one or not.
I agree with Jsherman, in the thinking that Ricoh can bring Pentax back to the table as a Full line brand (their stated goal of growing the ILC business pretty much demands it in the long run)
If you are completely happy with your apsc that's great continue to be happy. I don't think anyone has said Pentax should can apsc in favour of FF
Ff will also bring some new lenses ultimately and of course these will be usable on your apsc, Ff will likely develop AF and better metering along with better flash control, all of which will flow down to apsc. Win Win

**ManuH** · 08-24-2011, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

If Ricoh can bring out a Pentax 35mm sensor camera at a reasonable price without sinking the brand, great! But my evaluation is that a company with such small market share would only lose money on this attempt.

The only problem for Pentax is to source a good FF sensor. Everything else is a piece of cake, they already have the mount, the technology, even some lenses. I can't believe the investment has to be that big. At least for the body. For the lenses it's another matter, they cannot really resurrect the old FA* zooms. For a small (small in market share, Richoh is quite big actually) company like this the best is to outsource some of their development. They already cooperated with Tokina to spread their lenses R&D to Nikon/Canon. They could try to approach Sigma or Tamron for re branding some of their FF lenses instead of trying to do everything by themselves. They would have a good zoom line-up while concentrating on high margin small Limited primes.

They may not sell a lot of FF cameras but is it an argument when they sell the ultra low volume 645D (which BTW reuses almost all the electronic components from the K series)?

Emacs · 08-24-2011, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by ManuH

They may not sell a lot of FF cameras but is it an argument when they sell the ultra low volume 645D (which BTW reuses almost all the electronic components from the K series)?

BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too.

RonHendriks1966 · 08-24-2011, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Emacs

BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too.

where is that? I heard about some issues. Sales volume would be low, but cancelling is new to me.

Emacs · 08-24-2011, 01:12 PM

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/154506-...ml#post1625450

Let's wait, may be it's not cancelled

Kunzite · 08-24-2011, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Emacs

BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too.

There is no such "evidence".

**ManuH** · 08-24-2011, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Emacs

BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too.

I wouldn't look too much into that. It took them almost three years to release the DA* 60-250mm f/4.

**Aristophanes** · 08-24-2011, 02:35 PM

You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format. Not with SR. Not with near-Nikon quality AF. Not with video and fast FPS Not affordably. This is a pipe dream. The supporting circuitry and systems are large by necessity. Lens balance and durability are other factors. FF DSLR = BIG.

You will see Sony put out a smallish pellicle SLT and likely FF mirrorless.

About the smallest FF can go in a DSLR format and still justify the higher price pushed by the sensor and limited demand for a $3k body is the D300 size. If you want smaller the OVF and other features have to go.

jimH · 08-24-2011, 03:36 PM

I'd be happy if they could just get their manufacturing volume of the APS-C format cameras up enough so that vendors would actually advertise the availability of Pentax cameras. They need to reach that milestone first before they start thinking about building a FF camera. Maybe people would actually recognize Pentax as a viable brand.

It's not that I'm against a FF camera, I just don't think that it's necessary until they can fulfill volumes of consumer grade cameras so that vendors would start featuring them in their ads. Right now, it's no wonder the average camera buyer doesn't know what Pentax is, all they see advertised in mass marketing stores and camera retailer ads are Nikon and Canon cameras.

richard balonglong · 08-24-2011, 10:39 PM

When time comes for the release of the K-1, I'm positive about that it will be a FF camera, a new generation of the old prototype Pentax MZ-D / K-1 that was announced last September 2000.
Pentax just needs better marketing strategy to meet the needs for the development of the tech.

Originally posted by Aristophanes

You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format

With the old prototype FF of Pentax, it's not that big comparing to today's CaNikon FF camera. With today's new tech they can make it a little more compact.
Here's the size of the MZ-D / K-1 comparing it with *ist DL2 and Q:

**Rondec** · 08-25-2011, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format. Not with SR. Not with near-Nikon quality AF. Not with video and fast FPS Not affordably. This is a pipe dream. The supporting circuitry and systems are large by necessity. Lens balance and durability are other factors. FF DSLR = BIG.

You will see Sony put out a smallish pellicle SLT and likely FF mirrorless.

About the smallest FF can go in a DSLR format and still justify the higher price pushed by the sensor and limited demand for a $3k body is the D300 size. If you want smaller the OVF and other features have to go.

I'm afraid this is true. Look at how big cameras like the Sony A77 and Canon 7D are -- much bigger than lower end cameras. However, they have much more processing power, focus capabilities than lower end cameras as well. Speed comes at a price and in the case of cameras, that price is size. Obviously, Canon/Nikon haven't gone out of their way to shrink their cameras, but on the other hand, I think it is clear that the extra features they include take space.

**ManuH** · 08-25-2011, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think it is clear that the extra features they include take space.

Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5.

Emacs · 08-25-2011, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5.

They had FF prototype in the K-7/K-5 body. No SR of course.

eddie1960 · 08-25-2011, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5.

Actually given the Nex-7 has SR in that tiny space i think it's less of an issue than we think. the Nex-7 is a damn appealing looking camera IMO. now they just need some more lenses for it
I wouldn't be surprised for Sony to be the first to FF MILC (say a Nex-9) maybe even when the 900 replacement comes around. they seem to be getting damn serious about taking Canikon down a peg or 3

Emacs · 08-25-2011, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

I wouldn't be surprised for Sony to be the first to FF MILC (say a Nex-9) maybe even when the 900 replacement comes around. they seem to be getting damn serious about taking Canikon down a peg or 3

That wouldn't be damn good, I would stop bitching here and would only remember what the pentax is when mounting Ltds on it

View Poll Results: Will there be a Pentax Full Frame camera on PhotoKina 2012?
YES	66	25.78%
NO	190	74.22%
Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

08-24-2011, 03:36 PM	#234
jimH Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Central Nebraska - USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,771	I'd be happy if they could just get their manufacturing volume of the APS-C format cameras up enough so that vendors would actually advertise the availability of Pentax cameras. They need to reach that milestone first before they start thinking about building a FF camera. Maybe people would actually recognize Pentax as a viable brand. It's not that I'm against a FF camera, I just don't think that it's necessary until they can fulfill volumes of consumer grade cameras so that vendors would start featuring them in their ads. Right now, it's no wonder the average camera buyer doesn't know what Pentax is, all they see advertised in mass marketing stores and camera retailer ads are Nikon and Canon cameras. Last edited by jimH; 08-25-2011 at 12:26 PM.

08-24-2011, 10:39 PM	#235
richard balonglong Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Baguio City, Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	When time comes for the release of the K-1, I'm positive about that it will be a FF camera, a new generation of the old prototype Pentax MZ-D / K-1 that was announced last September 2000. Pentax just needs better marketing strategy to meet the needs for the development of the tech. Originally posted by Aristophanes You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format With the old prototype FF of Pentax, it's not that big comparing to today's CaNikon FF camera. With today's new tech they can make it a little more compact. Here's the size of the MZ-D / K-1 comparing it with ist DL2 and Q: Last edited by richard balonglong; 08-24-2011 at 11:42 PM.*

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08-24-2011, 11:17 AM	#226
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	The amount of arguement against Full frame amazes me. Some people obviously want a FF camera, whether their reasons are valid or even correct matters not. Personally If one comes out I know I will eventually buy it (probably instead of a K5 ultimately). The if you want Ff go canikon doesn't wash. Lots of the people who want FF also have a good amount invested in the Pentax brand, why should they have to run 2 systems. Canikon owners and Sony owners don't have to do this and neither ultimately should Pentax users. I agree the DOF arguement doesn't wash for me (if i really want DOF I'd shoot with my MF). Good wides and UWA are a good reason for FF in itself (and yep Pentax may have to launch a new lens or 2 to compete) Ultimately I think it will come down the pipeline whether you want one or not. I agree with Jsherman, in the thinking that Ricoh can bring Pentax back to the table as a Full line brand (their stated goal of growing the ILC business pretty much demands it in the long run) If you are completely happy with your apsc that's great continue to be happy. I don't think anyone has said Pentax should can apsc in favour of FF Ff will also bring some new lenses ultimately and of course these will be usable on your apsc, Ff will likely develop AF and better metering along with better flash control, all of which will flow down to apsc. Win Win

08-24-2011, 12:50 PM	#227
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by rparmar If Ricoh can bring out a Pentax 35mm sensor camera at a reasonable price without sinking the brand, great! But my evaluation is that a company with such small market share would only lose money on this attempt. The only problem for Pentax is to source a good FF sensor. Everything else is a piece of cake, they already have the mount, the technology, even some lenses. I can't believe the investment has to be that big. At least for the body. For the lenses it's another matter, they cannot really resurrect the old FA* zooms. For a small (small in market share, Richoh is quite big actually) company like this the best is to outsource some of their development. They already cooperated with Tokina to spread their lenses R&D to Nikon/Canon. They could try to approach Sigma or Tamron for re branding some of their FF lenses instead of trying to do everything by themselves. They would have a good zoom line-up while concentrating on high margin small Limited primes. They may not sell a lot of FF cameras but is it an argument when they sell the ultra low volume 645D (which BTW reuses almost all the electronic components from the K series)?

08-24-2011, 12:55 PM	#228
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	Originally posted by ManuH They may not sell a lot of FF cameras but is it an argument when they sell the ultra low volume 645D (which BTW reuses almost all the electronic components from the K series)? BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too.

08-24-2011, 01:00 PM	#229
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675 Original Poster	Originally posted by Emacs BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too. where is that? I heard about some issues. Sales volume would be low, but cancelling is new to me.

08-24-2011, 01:12 PM	#230
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/154506-...ml#post1625450 Let's wait, may be it's not cancelled

08-24-2011, 02:15 PM	#231
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Emacs BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too. There is no such "evidence".

08-24-2011, 02:34 PM	#232
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by Emacs BTW, there's an evidence they canceled 25mm for 645D. So it looks like they are about to cancel 645D too. I wouldn't look too much into that. It took them almost three years to release the DA* 60-250mm f/4.

08-24-2011, 02:35 PM	#233
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format. Not with SR. Not with near-Nikon quality AF. Not with video and fast FPS Not affordably. This is a pipe dream. The supporting circuitry and systems are large by necessity. Lens balance and durability are other factors. FF DSLR = BIG. You will see Sony put out a smallish pellicle SLT and likely FF mirrorless. About the smallest FF can go in a DSLR format and still justify the higher price pushed by the sensor and limited demand for a $3k body is the D300 size. If you want smaller the OVF and other features have to go.

08-25-2011, 04:15 AM	#236
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by Aristophanes You won't get a "smallish form" FF body from Pentax in DSLR format. Not with SR. Not with near-Nikon quality AF. Not with video and fast FPS Not affordably. This is a pipe dream. The supporting circuitry and systems are large by necessity. Lens balance and durability are other factors. FF DSLR = BIG. You will see Sony put out a smallish pellicle SLT and likely FF mirrorless. About the smallest FF can go in a DSLR format and still justify the higher price pushed by the sensor and limited demand for a $3k body is the D300 size. If you want smaller the OVF and other features have to go. I'm afraid this is true. Look at how big cameras like the Sony A77 and Canon 7D are -- much bigger than lower end cameras. However, they have much more processing power, focus capabilities than lower end cameras as well. Speed comes at a price and in the case of cameras, that price is size. Obviously, Canon/Nikon haven't gone out of their way to shrink their cameras, but on the other hand, I think it is clear that the extra features they include take space.

08-25-2011, 05:54 AM	#237
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by Rondec I think it is clear that the extra features they include take space. Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5.

08-25-2011, 05:56 AM	#238
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	Originally posted by ManuH Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5. They had FF prototype in the K-7/K-5 body. No SR of course.

08-25-2011, 05:58 AM	#239
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by ManuH Really? What about the Nex-7? It can't be the electronics taking that much space. OK the sensor has to be bigger, maybe also the pentaprism (but it could use less magnification). But otherwise? If we leave SR aside I'm sure a FF Pentax could be as small as a K-5. Actually given the Nex-7 has SR in that tiny space i think it's less of an issue than we think. the Nex-7 is a damn appealing looking camera IMO. now they just need some more lenses for it I wouldn't be surprised for Sony to be the first to FF MILC (say a Nex-9) maybe even when the 900 replacement comes around. they seem to be getting damn serious about taking Canikon down a peg or 3

08-25-2011, 06:21 AM	#240
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	Originally posted by eddie1960 I wouldn't be surprised for Sony to be the first to FF MILC (say a Nex-9) maybe even when the 900 replacement comes around. they seem to be getting damn serious about taking Canikon down a peg or 3 That wouldn't be damn good, I would stop bitching here and would only remember what the pentax is when mounting Ltds on it