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11-25-2007, 06:30 PM   #1
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Petition (vote) for DPReview to REDO their test w/optimized JPG cnfg like othr DSLRs?

We all know someone(s) decision @ Pentax to give the K10D a 'softer' JPEG encoding (probably rifted now), even compared to the K100D, has proven to be a thorn in its side in 'vs' testing. Some (many) may say Pentax has put themselves in an unnecessary questionable standing in the "my daddy is smarter then your daddy" debates/contests around the world. (I do shoot RAW exclusively now myself) Many will echo that giving the competitors and critics something to latch onto and harp on was quite a strategic blunder, and completely unnecessary given the job they did with the K100D's own default JPEG encoding quality.

We also all know how to quickly and easily set the K10D to encode its JPGs with a sharper encoding, similar to the K100D's default setting. What gets me though is seeing several tests now on DPReview of various DSLRs that duplicates all the JPEG comparison tests, one set with the default JPEG encoding, and another set with an optimized JPEG encoding. Yet the K10D still sports that 'Highly Recommended (barely)" conclusion due to its under optimized JPEG encoding, with only a passing mention of how easy it is to choose a more sensible JPEG encoding that provides much more resolved output., and othe rcameras not meeting the K10D's RAW output not getting a 'asterisk' to its rating.

If you'd like to send a message to DPreview to revisit its review with optimized JPEG settings like it does other DSLRs, please vote "yes".

EDIT! I was going to add a poll, but I guess ti took me over 5 minutes to come up with the working I wanted to use onthe 3 selections, so no poll now!


Last edited by m8o; 11-25-2007 at 06:48 PM. Reason: I was working on adding a poll but there's a 5 minute restriction on that! :(
11-25-2007, 06:40 PM   #2
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I think it's more important for them (dpreview) to address the issue more carefully for the next model than it is for them to revisit the past.

Pentax can do a lot to help this. The issue isn't that (as some people imply) that the reviewers were too dumb to change the settings from the default. If you read the manual, it isn't at all apparent that changing the tone curve will have an effect on sharpness (beyond what one gets from having increased contrast). Therefore, simply making a better manual (and more descriptive menus) will go a long way.
11-25-2007, 06:47 PM   #3
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Seems silly and pointless to make an issue over a review, especially one of "theirs".

Plus, if they are rated below the top, maybe they will be sold for less?
11-25-2007, 06:50 PM   #4
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I think the reason the other reviews are like this now was because of the uproar that was had for not doing it with the K10D.

It was possibly done with one or two cameras prior to this, but was probably not the norm. I believe that they are covering their tracks now to avoid the same cry from the CaNikon crew, as they are probably quite a chunk of their forum base and maybe even sponsor base. The site may see a downturn in popularity if the i's are not dotted and the t's not crossed now.

I believe that unfortunately, the K10D ended up as the martyr. Changing that review now can also become a big matter for contention, as people would feel that all that is needed to get a more favorable review of their brand is to apply pressure. Also it reduces the credibility of the site to some extent to do this. The fault is not theirs ( the manufacturer should have done better they will say ) and they received a proper working sample, so there is nothing to fix as far as they are concerned.

Just my two cents.

D

11-25-2007, 06:54 PM   #5
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Matt, Interesting point, and I can't argue bettering the already quite good manual.

But in this regard of what the review knows and can do... I'd be very surprised to find that the manual for the Oly E-510 covers setting the "Noise Filter parameter set to 'Off' and Sharpness -2 to compensate for the reduced need to sharpen" (to quote directly from DPReview) to output more resolved JPEG images (at the risk of higher noise, especially above ISO800 to paraphrase again from the site).

good points there dudlew. It wouldn't be beyond reason for a follow-up test IMO tho. Many automotive mags or exclusive Inet based sites make that a norm.
11-25-2007, 07:09 PM   #6
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Nice thought but pointless. By the time they re did the test and put it up for people to see, the K10D would be long gone. Think they got the message and will improve their review methodology. Pentax will probably improve their jpegs too.
thanks
barondla
11-25-2007, 07:47 PM   #7
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For those of us who are new K10D users, what are the recommended settings to improve the default JPEG quality?

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11-25-2007, 09:12 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
But in this regard of what the review knows and can do... I'd be very surprised to find that the manual for the Oly E-510 covers setting the "Noise Filter parameter set to 'Off' and Sharpness -2 to compensate for the reduced need to sharpen" (to quote directly from DPReview) to output more resolved JPEG images (at the risk of higher noise, especially above ISO800 to paraphrase again from the site).
Probably all camera makers could stand to have better manuals. But the above is something one might logically try -- turn off in-camera noise reduction because we know that's done with blurring, and then the logical compensatory change to sharpening.

Changing the tone curve in the K10D apparently also alters the sharpening algorithm. If one knows that in advance, the wording in the manual might allude to that, but otherwise I think it's pretty forgivable to think that it just affects the, you know, tone curve.

In the review in question, they do try the obvious steps of increasing the sharpening setting, and I'm sure if Pentax had a customizable NR level they would have played with that too.

11-25-2007, 09:54 PM   #9
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DP review seems to be pretty fair, it seems...Infact, it was really them that Sold me on my first pentax.
11-25-2007, 10:14 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rusty Quote
For those of us who are new K10D users, what are the recommended settings to improve the default JPEG quality?
Rusty
As is the common with most message boards frequented by very interested, knowledgeable and giving members like with this board... the Search option my friend, is your freind...

Most common consensus is either switch to Vivid tone, or (not and) keep it on Natural tone and +1 Saturation and +1 Sharpness. however, there are many an opinion on that! Just a few of the many threads in this regard...

- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-pentax-photography/9689-what-your...g-setting.html
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/14117-pentax-k10d-...-settings.html
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/14585-k10d-contras...gs-matrix.html

...like getting a drink of water from a firehose....
11-26-2007, 07:18 AM   #11
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Already tried

QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
As is the common with most message boards frequented by very interested, knowledgeable and giving members like with this board... the Search option my friend, is your freind...

Most common consensus is either switch to Vivid tone, or (not and) keep it on Natural tone and +1 Saturation and +1 Sharpness. however, there are many an opinion on that! Just a few of the many threads in this regard...

- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-pentax-photography/9689-what-your...g-setting.html
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/14117-pentax-k10d-...-settings.html
- https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/14585-k10d-contras...gs-matrix.html

...like getting a drink of water from a firehose....
After the initial review and subsequent turmoil Phil said he tried some of the other settings and saw no difference... go figure.
11-26-2007, 07:32 AM   #12
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I think it would make far more sense to advise Pentax to set the defaults for the best results, for reviewers. If DPReview used something other than the default settings then they'd be accussed by the devotees of cheating.
11-26-2007, 08:17 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by patrickt Quote
I think it would make far more sense to advise Pentax to set the defaults for the best results, for reviewers. If DPReview used something other than the default settings then they'd be accussed by the devotees of cheating.
This is absolutely the correct view.

I would hazard a guess that there are manufacturers who tune their default setting to get good reviews.

Perhaps Pentax should optimize a "Default" setting just for reviews
and a separate "Optimum" setting.

Caveat - I only have the K100D (non-Super) - set to Natural tone, since I adjust/process all my shots - the over-saturation of the K100D default of Bright is too much (for me - YMMV).

BTW - the Default Bright tone setting on the K100D gets pretty harsh criticism from dpReview -
see 11. Features at dpReview -

"Color Saturation Adjustment
Saturation adjustment allows you to control the strength of color in the final image. It's quite amazing that Pentax could ignore something we pointed out over a year ago when we reviewed the *ist DS, that the default saturation level is way too high. In my opinion the '0' setting should be mapped to '+2' and the '-2' setting would be just right as a default. The K100D's -2 setting (in the Bright tone) has about as much saturation as a +1 setting on any other digital SLR. (Default Bright tone used here)."

So the Bright Tone setting does NOT exactly get glowing reviews either.
11-26-2007, 10:08 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
Caveat - I only have the K100D (non-Super) - set to Natural tone, since I adjust/process all my shots - the over-saturation of the K100D default of Bright is too much (for me - YMMV).
I'm curious -- why don't you use RAW? Too slow? I really have trouble seeing the point of Natural mode except as a kind of work-around for performance issues.

QuoteQuote:
"Color Saturation Adjustment
Saturation adjustment allows you to control the strength of color in the final image. It's quite amazing that Pentax could ignore something we pointed out over a year ago when we reviewed the *ist DS, that the default saturation level is way too high. In my opinion the '0' setting should be mapped to '+2' and the '-2' setting would be just right as a default. The K100D's -2 setting (in the Bright tone) has about as much saturation as a +1 setting on any other digital SLR. (Default Bright tone used here)."

So the Bright Tone setting does NOT exactly get glowing reviews either.
Yeah. As noted in the thread someone linked to above, I very much suggest turning Saturation down in Bright mode.

The bottom line, though, is: either a) Phil is totally right about the sharpening algorithm and bright mode has no actual effect on the algorithm used (some forum posts have me pretty sure that he's actually wrong here, but I'm not an expert pixel-peeper), in which case, yeah, whatever, or b) he's wrong, and it'd be cool if the tone curve and sharpening algorithm were separated into two menu options, or at least documented more clearly.
11-26-2007, 10:22 AM   #15
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I don't have a K100D, but I won't doubt that. That then must be like using Vivid on the K10D and increasing Saturation, Sharpness and Contrast ... it's too much as I've found myself. Reason I'm saying "I don't doubt that" but not owning one is based on reading from many stating that the K10D's 'Vivid' encoding is very similar [same?] to K100D's 'Natural' (which DPReview states that Pentax got just near perfect! ) and the impetus for this whole thread. Therefore I am likening Vivid on the K100 to using Vivid on the K10D and increasing the other settings ; too much as you state.

...But, it's obvious from the responses I'm in the minority in caring about that one site's review too much; and enlightening perspectives posted did very well in swaying my opinion too.... Ok, never mind about this whole idea...!!!
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