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12-17-2006, 09:20 PM   #1
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Soft JPEG edges? I'm not seeing it.

Two RAW DNG+JPEG shots, F22 for maximum DOF, first with default out-of-the-box camera settings, the second with +2 sharpening, plus the corresponding DNG RAW processed in CS2 exactly as described on DPReview:

JPEGs are straight out of the camera, only cropped, no other manipulation.

Sorry about the crops not being in the exact same spot for each image, I don't know how to do that with CS2 yet.

100% Crops:

RAW DNG, No Auto initial sharpness 0, Unsharp mask 80% rest defaulted:


Default settings, JPEG:


Sharpness +2, JPEG:


Resized uncropped images (links only):

RAW: http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/7660/knifesharpnessraworigkj1.jpg
Default: http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9210/knifesharpnessdefaultyq7.jpg
Sharp+2: http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4243/knifesharpnesssharp2xw8.jpg

I dunno about you guys but to me edge sharpness of the default JPEG looks identical if not even more detailed and sharper than the RAW+CS2 effort, and the +2 sharp JPEG looks much sharper.

If anyone can see something I can't, feel free to ridicule my eye sight.

12-17-2006, 09:39 PM   #2
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you can only see it at 100% crops...

Of course if you want to print over A3 or crop heavily just apply some USM and the problem is solved.. He did say all the texture detail is there just the edges are not sharpened as much, but you can do that yourself if the situation requires it...
12-17-2006, 09:55 PM   #3
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Jpegs are great on this camera. I do not see this as a problem at all.

As a matter of fact, all my shots with k10d are taken in jpegs. If images are ever soft, I blame myself rather than the camera's fault.

I would just stitch photos up rather than blowing up to A3 size...

My 2 cents
12-17-2006, 10:37 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
you can only see it at 100% crops...

Of course if you want to print over A3 or crop heavily just apply some USM and the problem is solved.. He did say all the texture detail is there just the edges are not sharpened as much, but you can do that yourself if the situation requires it...
Those are 100% crops, and I don't see where an edge sharpness problem in any of the JPEG outputs, relative to the RAW.

12-17-2006, 10:39 PM   #5
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sorry I didn't notice that, you did say 100% crop...

Well maybe we need to peep to 200% ... LOL
12-18-2006, 02:10 AM   #6
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I think your examples look sharp, but it seems that the Sharpness (+2) parameter doesn't change much? Could it be a bug in the software? Phil over at dpreview also says that using the sharpness doesn't make the JPGs sharper.

I don't miss any sharpness in your examples, but if you look the dpreview JPG examples, you'll see that the K10D example isn't as sharp as eg. the D80 example.

K10D:


D80:


Comparing RAW image from the K10D with RAW iamges from the rivals, the Pentax comes out best in (almost?) all the examples I've seen, which is why this is surprising me:

Pentax K10D Review: 24. Compared to...: Digital Photography Review

This is a comparison of resolution between four cameras, but are based based on JPGs, in spite of the fact that the reviewer knows that JPGs conversion is K10D's weak point in terms of sharpness. It would be interesting to see a resolution test based on RAW images (which are processed only once, not twice), because that would say more about resolution and the cameras abilities to capture images, and less about the algorithms used to convert the images to JPGs.

"Not that surprising to see the K10D under performing in our resolution chart shot, this due primarily to the already discussed lack of sharpness in edge detail (be this due to poor demosaicing or unusual sharpening)."

At the bottom he adds that "A RAW converted resolution chart exhibits about 2200 LPH in the horizontal direction and 2000 LPH in the vertical direction.", but doesn't say anything about how the competition performs in terms of resolution/RAW.

The camera that has the lowest solution of the four (Canon 30D), gets this comment in it's own test: 'Excellent resolution' (the 30D JPG resolution is 1850 x 1650, the K10D JPG resolution is 2000 x 1800).

To write that the image processor is 'unable to deliver crisp sharp edges' isn't correct, even when followed with 'better to shoot RAW'. The image processor may or may not be able to deliver crisp sharp edges, but the current firmware are delivering JPGs with less sharp edges than eg Nikon d80.

RAW pictures are also processed. (Look here: "Also, RAW does not mean a real unprocessed RAW. It is the data created as an image and each maker's image creation philosophy is built in"). Maybe they are not processed by the image processor (?), but it's quite clear that the K10D is able to deliver crisp sharp edges. Pentax may loose sales on people who spend less time or reading reviews thoroughly, especially due to dpreviews 7.5 (out of 10) for K10D's image quality (the image quality of the Canon d30 is described as excellent). I hope dpreview will consider editing their article because the conclusion gives the image quality isn't good.
12-18-2006, 03:19 AM   #7
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I seem to recall in one of the interviews with Pentax, that certain parameters were left "unprocessed" in camera, because they're research told them the target customer of this camera prefers to post process the images.

I know he was referring to high ISO noise, but I also think Jpeg sharpening also falls into this category.

If this is true, then the cameras are working as designed.

I think some folks over at DPR really over reacted to the review. Unfortunately they are a very vocal minority. They completely ignore Phil's statement about viewable at 100% crop only ( no matter how many times they are reminded). I also believe the DR issue is a lab test only thing, and is not really applicable in every day shooting.

-Alan
12-18-2006, 03:38 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by roscot Quote
I think some folks over at DPR really over reacted to the review. Unfortunately they are a very vocal minority. They completely ignore Phil's statement about viewable at 100% crop only ( no matter how many times they are reminded).
I think this is due to Phils need to add (just) to the "highly recomended" seemingly based pretty much solely on this 'JPEG issue'.. For many it seems like it was a backhanded complement.. Great camera (just barely)... "Pentax could do better" despite the fact that Pentax actually gave many of us what we wanted..

I think though the calls of being a Canon Shill are completely uncalled for... Its just that Phil has a personal preference for how JPEGs should be and unfortunately his personal preference seems to have clouded the rating of this camera.. Of course that is completely within his rights all reviews reflect their personal views on how things should be (they are all human after all), its just very frustrating to a good number of people...

I don't think it will affect the sales too bad though (as some on dpr do) the backorders are still HUGE, Pentax can't keep up with demand as it is, can you imagine if the review stated the "best mid range DSLR on the market"....

12-18-2006, 04:45 AM   #9
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My opinion of the Phil Askey's review is that it is biased towards his own personal likes - this is not a bad thing but I think he should have the courtesy to say this as a prelude to the Review - instead the review is put forward as a scientific study of a cameras performance.

"Smooth clean images with good color and tone, not as crisp as we would like"

I have to ask; Who is WE?

Who was it that said ultra sharp in camera jpegs are the goal of achievement for DSLR?

Why can't manufacturers explore other options for in camera jpegs that give a more film like quality? Who made Phil Askey the dictator of taste in photography?

What are the set parameters that, according to Phil Askey, all DSLR manufacturers are supposed to achieve in a DSLR in regards to Jpegs?

It seems to me that Phil Askey uses the Canon parameters for in camera jpeg processing as the benchmark because they suit his tastes and he should state this in his review - They are his tastes which does not necessarilly make them correct.

I personally think that the reviews on DPreview are to some extent accurate scientific observations but I do not believe that Phil Askey has the professional attributes that enable him to write an unbiased review, no matter how much he believes it.
12-18-2006, 05:39 AM   #10
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Well... Phil's reviews are okay... I mean, they are informative with respect to the samples and measures he delivers in each review. However, I prefer to draw my own conclusions about the so called evidences. Phil has his own expectations (bias) from a camera, and I have mine. I have stopped replying his mails in the forms long ago. I don't bother with his views.
12-18-2006, 05:57 AM   #11
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Hi Joele,

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
I think this is due to Phils need to add (just) to the "highly recomended" seemingly based pretty much solely on this 'JPEG issue'.. For many it seems like it was a backhanded complement.. Great camera (just barely)... "Pentax could do better" despite the fact that Pentax actually gave many of us what we wanted..
Perhaps, but he is only one opinion after all. I think people tend to give him more power over the manufacturers than is due him. You are right, Pentax gave ME exactly the camera I wanted. It gives me the ability to expand and improve my skills without outgrowing the camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
I think though the calls of being a Canon Shill are completely uncalled for... Its just that Phil has a personal preference for how JPEGs should be and unfortunately his personal preference seems to have clouded the rating of this camera.. Of course that is completely within his rights all reviews reflect their personal views on how things should be (they are all human after all), its just very frustrating to a good number of people...
Absolutely uncalled for. As I said, he is but one opinion, and he is entitled to it. I don't usually shoot jpeg, but of course I had to try when I got the camera. I like the quality of the images in either Jpeg or RAW. That is my opinion.

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
I don't think it will affect the sales too bad though (as some on dpr do) the backorders are still HUGE, Pentax can't keep up with demand as it is, can you imagine if the review stated the "best mid range DSLR on the market"....
Things will quiet down and blow over. After all, the "soft Jpeg" issue did not seem to hurt DS sales too badly.

The more I use this beast, the more impressed I become with its capabilities. So far, I am fully satisfied with it.

Cheers
-Alan
12-18-2006, 06:05 AM   #12
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Hi Falcons,
See my reply to Joele above. Phil definitely has his, ummm.... stubborn side.

He does do very good technical reviews, although I'm not sure his "SR" test is the best format for this feature. I've learned to take his conclusions with a grain of salt, and read through the whole review, and make up my own mind. Unfortunately, too many people just jump to the conclusions page.

Anyway, solid user opinion and examples way more heavily with me.

Cheers
-Alan
12-18-2006, 06:07 AM   #13
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We all have our opinions and biases. That is a natural part of our culture. There is nothing wrong with diversity.

Cheers
-Alan
12-18-2006, 06:51 AM   #14
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Mr. Askey's reviews only bother me on a small, subtle level. The numbers though arguable, are just numbers.
I get a bit annoyed at the "tone"

Case in point D80 vs K10D and DR
D80 Review, prior to K10D.....
quote..... There's no significant difference here between any of these cameras, other than the EOS 30D's slightly better shadow performance, although it's questionable whether you would ever be able to take full advantage of that. There is a difference in the actual tone curve, with both the Sony and Canon showing a more gradual roll-off in highlights, the D80 a more linear response from middle gray to the clipping point (this is fairly typically Nikon-like).
..............
.........
Somewhere here he states 1/3step DR as insignificant, and the DR is 8.4 vs 8... hmmm...
.........
Nikon D80 Review: 19. Photographic tests: Digital Photography Review
Fair enough, and if you look at the red line, that's what you see, almost an "arrow straight" line...
Now for the K10
...........Again the K10D's contrasty tone curve is even more obvious here, giving up around a third of a stop in shadow range and a third of a stop in highlight range it actually delivers less dynamic range than we were expecting to see

and
.............
The K10D had a very strange, contrasty tone curve, a virtual straight line from middle gray upwards with almost no roll-off in highlights and (just like the K100D) a lower than average highlight range (about a third of a stop less than the competition). At higher sensitivities the total range becomes limited by the amount of noise at the darker end of the range (shadow range).
Pentax K10D Review: 15. Photographic tests: Digital Photography Review
..........................
Nikon is typical and Pentax is strange...I know subtle and nit-picky points (and doesn't change the "numbers")
but I just "see" this in almost every Pentax review.... Downplay for one brand, make it a crisis for another... Maybe I'm just reading too much into all this, and really doesn't matter all that much. I just have this thing for double standards. I won't even go into th AA thing
12-18-2006, 11:47 AM   #15
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Roscot: Your right at least here in Australia our sales of the DS were very good despite the review... I also mentioned elsewhere, that since the K100d got a very good review it has had NO effect on our sales figures for that camera..

Jeffkrol: No I don't think you are reading too much into it, people at work who shoot other brands and couldn't care less about Pentax still notice it and mention it to me.. I just don't think it is malicious, we all do that sort of thing without knowing it..

Last edited by joele; 12-18-2006 at 03:31 PM.
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