extreme pixel peeping..

trog100 · 12-19-2006, 02:00 PM

k10 and k100 crops.. i dont know where they first came from but the six mega pixel image was first upsized to be the same as the larger ten mega pixel image useing irfanview..

they were then 100% cropped and the crops enlarged to double size..

i could have downsized the ten to be the same as the six but thought it fairer to go the other way..

trog

ps.. i think.. i have the reason phil askey only gave the k10 7.5 for image quality.. when he reviewed the k100 he said looking at these it makes me wonder why we need eight and ten mega pixels.. he dosnt like the mega pixel race and dosnt see another four mega pixels worth of image qulaity in the k10 over the k100.. his now infamous "just" comment reflects this.. so did his glowing review of the six mega pixel k100..

Last edited by trog100; 12-19-2006 at 02:10 PM.

foxglove · 12-19-2006, 05:56 PM

Sort of reminds me of an ad, I forget for what, that involved someone saying "Can you see the difference? I can't see the difference."

Okay, I can see the difference... but sheesh, it's 200%! I'd better be able to see a difference! Pretty subtle, though. Interesting comparison.

Julie

trog100 · 12-19-2006, 07:44 PM

dont forget the the smaller six mega pixel image is upsized before the crop then the doubling to 200%.. i assume some kinda degrade will have happened here.. in other words the smaller image has been magnified more..

trog

joele · 12-19-2006, 08:39 PM

I see the difference too, but the K100d IQ is still good enough for me..

As I have said elsewhere, if Pentax offered the K10d with all the same specs but the 6mp sensor, I still would have bought it... It was the features I wanted more than the extra MP..

Unfortunately most of the marketplace seems to want more MP, so if Pentax are too survive they need to keep up with the rest...

trog100 · 12-20-2006, 06:16 AM

it seems the world categorizes cameras this way also.. its not surprizing people want them but if u read between the lines pretty much every reveiwer says if only they had improved the old sensor in ways that matter and we all know what those improvements would be..

in the UK the k100 can be had for £375.. the K10 for £625..

its not the extra features that justify that big price difference to joe public its the extra mega pixels..

and thats aimed at people that should know better..

trog

ps.. "if only" goes right back to the days when we reached four or five mega pixels..

Photo Tramp · 12-20-2006, 06:35 AM

I have to agree with you Trog, the 24% increase in mp is not worth it when it affects the overall resolution as you have shown here. Although 200% is a little high to enlarge to and I do consider Pixel peeping at this range a little over the top the difference is quite clear (no pun intended) the only advantage to a 10mp and higher camera is in the file size being written and in commercial printing industry use for mass reproduction in publications.

I for one am looking forward to Christmas for a new k100D I don't need the extra mp but I do relish the new SR. and extra AF points.

Thanks for sharing this information.

Good Shooting.
Cheers: David

trog100 · 12-20-2006, 08:19 AM

200% is way over the top.. but its where i had to go to point out the difference.. the k10 has more "prestige" but perhaps overall the k100 is the more sensible choice..

i have done this with all the similar k10-k100 images i have come across.. i dont see any gain from the extra mega pixels.. in fact i see a loss in other factors..

trog

trog100 · 12-20-2006, 08:59 AM

some even more extreme pixel peeping..

my k100 with old smc pentax manual 50mm 1.7 prime..

a 100% crop then enlarged by a factor of four.. useing irfanview..

sorry i dont have a k10 compare shot.. i dont have a k10 at my disposal..

the crop is from my standard sharpness lens testing pic.. its a steel ruler from about five feet away taken indoor with flash..

trog

ps.. jpeg straight from the camera with sharpness set at normal..

carpents · 12-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by trog100

200% is way over the top.. but its where i had to go to point out the difference.. the k10 has more "prestige" but perhaps overall the k100 is the more sensible choice..

i have done this with all the similar k10-k100 images i have come across.. i dont see any gain from the extra mega pixels.. in fact i see a loss in other factors..

trog

The difference might be noticeable on 20" x 30" prints, which I've done.

Also:
pentaprism (K10) vs. pentamirror (K100)
weather sealed (K10) vs. not sealed (K100)
support for in-lens [SSM] focusing (K10) vs. no SSM (K100)
3 fps until the card is full (K10) vs. 2.8 fps for 5 frames (K100)
faster overall response time (K10) vs. slower overall response time (K100)
manual custom white balance [Kelvin, fine tuning] (K10) vs. no manual WB (K100)
vertical grip available (K10) vs. no vertical grip (K100)
two scroll wheels (K10) vs. one scroll wheel (K100)

...might explain some of the difference in cost.

trog100 · 12-20-2006, 12:26 PM

u forgot the anti-dust gizmo..

trog

joele · 12-20-2006, 02:00 PM

Another few..

-Extra buttons/controls...
-More efffective SR (I have owned both k100d and K10d and I notice a difference)
- Li-Ion Battery (I prefer this to AA)

trog100 · 12-20-2006, 03:27 PM

pentaprism (K10) vs. pentamirror (K100)
weather sealed (K10) vs. not sealed (K100)
support for in-lens [SSM] focusing (K10) vs. no SSM (K100)
3 fps until the card is full (K10) vs. 2.8 fps for 5 frames (K100)
faster overall response time (K10) vs. slower overall response time (K100)
manual custom white balance [Kelvin, fine tuning] (K10) vs. no manual WB (K100)
vertical grip available (K10) vs. no vertical grip (K100)
two scroll wheels (K10) vs. one scroll wheel (K100)
anti-dust gizmo
-Extra buttons/controls...
-More efffective SR (I have owned both k100d and K10d and I notice a difference)
- Li-Ion Battery (I prefer this to AA)

trog

joele · 12-20-2006, 05:19 PM

Well I think all that was worth the extra I paid to upgrade ;-)

I just hope the MP race stops soon, and they concentrate on better pixels not more.. (less noise, better DR etc)

roentarre · 12-20-2006, 05:33 PM

Most P & S cameras are already hitting 10 mega pixel mark for sales pitch already.

leaton · 12-27-2006, 10:13 AM

You missed another one
K10 vs K100
K10 more noise - K100 less noise. (Maybe the only thing the K100 does better,
besides cost- but to me the overwhelmingly most important)

12-19-2006, 02:00 PM	#1
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642	extreme pixel peeping.. k10 and k100 crops.. i dont know where they first came from but the six mega pixel image was first upsized to be the same as the larger ten mega pixel image useing irfanview.. they were then 100% cropped and the crops enlarged to double size.. i could have downsized the ten to be the same as the six but thought it fairer to go the other way.. trog ps.. i think.. i have the reason phil askey only gave the k10 7.5 for image quality.. when he reviewed the k100 he said looking at these it makes me wonder why we need eight and ten mega pixels.. he dosnt like the mega pixel race and dosnt see another four mega pixels worth of image qulaity in the k10 over the k100.. his now infamous "just" comment reflects this.. so did his glowing review of the six mega pixel k100.. Last edited by trog100; 12-19-2006 at 02:10 PM.

12-20-2006, 08:59 AM	#8
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	some even more extreme pixel peeping.. my k100 with old smc pentax manual 50mm 1.7 prime.. a 100% crop then enlarged by a factor of four.. useing irfanview.. sorry i dont have a k10 compare shot.. i dont have a k10 at my disposal.. the crop is from my standard sharpness lens testing pic.. its a steel ruler from about five feet away taken indoor with flash.. trog ps.. jpeg straight from the camera with sharpness set at normal.. Last edited by trog100; 12-20-2006 at 09:05 AM.

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12-19-2006, 05:56 PM	#2
foxglove Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Atlantic Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,049	Sort of reminds me of an ad, I forget for what, that involved someone saying "Can you see the difference? I can't see the difference." Okay, I can see the difference... but sheesh, it's 200%! I'd better be able to see a difference! Pretty subtle, though. Interesting comparison. Julie

12-19-2006, 07:44 PM	#3
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	dont forget the the smaller six mega pixel image is upsized before the crop then the doubling to 200%.. i assume some kinda degrade will have happened here.. in other words the smaller image has been magnified more.. trog

12-19-2006, 08:39 PM	#4
joele Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,308	I see the difference too, but the K100d IQ is still good enough for me.. As I have said elsewhere, if Pentax offered the K10d with all the same specs but the 6mp sensor, I still would have bought it... It was the features I wanted more than the extra MP.. Unfortunately most of the marketplace seems to want more MP, so if Pentax are too survive they need to keep up with the rest...

12-20-2006, 06:16 AM	#5
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	it seems the world categorizes cameras this way also.. its not surprizing people want them but if u read between the lines pretty much every reveiwer says if only they had improved the old sensor in ways that matter and we all know what those improvements would be.. in the UK the k100 can be had for £375.. the K10 for £625.. its not the extra features that justify that big price difference to joe public its the extra mega pixels.. and thats aimed at people that should know better.. trog ps.. "if only" goes right back to the days when we reached four or five mega pixels..

12-20-2006, 06:35 AM	#6
Photo Tramp Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lancaster, PA. Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,041	I have to agree with you Trog, the 24% increase in mp is not worth it when it affects the overall resolution as you have shown here. Although 200% is a little high to enlarge to and I do consider Pixel peeping at this range a little over the top the difference is quite clear (no pun intended) the only advantage to a 10mp and higher camera is in the file size being written and in commercial printing industry use for mass reproduction in publications. I for one am looking forward to Christmas for a new k100D I don't need the extra mp but I do relish the new SR. and extra AF points. Thanks for sharing this information. Good Shooting. Cheers: David

12-20-2006, 08:19 AM	#7
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	200% is way over the top.. but its where i had to go to point out the difference.. the k10 has more "prestige" but perhaps overall the k100 is the more sensible choice.. i have done this with all the similar k10-k100 images i have come across.. i dont see any gain from the extra mega pixels.. in fact i see a loss in other factors.. trog

12-20-2006, 09:03 AM	#9
carpents Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: West Chester, PA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,420	Originally posted by trog100 200% is way over the top.. but its where i had to go to point out the difference.. the k10 has more "prestige" but perhaps overall the k100 is the more sensible choice.. i have done this with all the similar k10-k100 images i have come across.. i dont see any gain from the extra mega pixels.. in fact i see a loss in other factors.. trog The difference might be noticeable on 20" x 30" prints, which I've done. Also: pentaprism (K10) vs. pentamirror (K100) weather sealed (K10) vs. not sealed (K100) support for in-lens [SSM] focusing (K10) vs. no SSM (K100) 3 fps until the card is full (K10) vs. 2.8 fps for 5 frames (K100) faster overall response time (K10) vs. slower overall response time (K100) manual custom white balance [Kelvin, fine tuning] (K10) vs. no manual WB (K100) vertical grip available (K10) vs. no vertical grip (K100) two scroll wheels (K10) vs. one scroll wheel (K100) ...might explain some of the difference in cost.

12-20-2006, 12:26 PM	#10
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	u forgot the anti-dust gizmo.. trog

12-20-2006, 02:00 PM	#11
joele Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,308	Another few.. -Extra buttons/controls... -More efffective SR (I have owned both k100d and K10d and I notice a difference) - Li-Ion Battery (I prefer this to AA)

12-20-2006, 03:27 PM	#12
trog100 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: UK Posts: 642 Original Poster	pentaprism (K10) vs. pentamirror (K100) weather sealed (K10) vs. not sealed (K100) support for in-lens [SSM] focusing (K10) vs. no SSM (K100) 3 fps until the card is full (K10) vs. 2.8 fps for 5 frames (K100) faster overall response time (K10) vs. slower overall response time (K100) manual custom white balance [Kelvin, fine tuning] (K10) vs. no manual WB (K100) vertical grip available (K10) vs. no vertical grip (K100) two scroll wheels (K10) vs. one scroll wheel (K100) anti-dust gizmo -Extra buttons/controls... -More efffective SR (I have owned both k100d and K10d and I notice a difference) - Li-Ion Battery (I prefer this to AA) trog

12-20-2006, 05:19 PM	#13
joele Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,308	Well I think all that was worth the extra I paid to upgrade ;-) I just hope the MP race stops soon, and they concentrate on better pixels not more.. (less noise, better DR etc)

12-20-2006, 05:33 PM	#14
roentarre Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 11,783	Most P & S cameras are already hitting 10 mega pixel mark for sales pitch already.

12-27-2006, 10:13 AM	#15
leaton Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Buford Georgia Photos: Gallery Posts: 91	You missed another one K10 vs K100 K10 more noise - K100 less noise. (Maybe the only thing the K100 does better, besides cost- but to me the overwhelmingly most important)