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12-16-2007, 10:07 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
I didn't take that as saying that particular shot was backfocused, just that some of the lenses have that problem, and then proceeded to offer a shot at what would be considered settings that would most likely give anyone a poor shot.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I did accidentally leave out that the shot is at 16 mm focal length, said to be the worst length, as well. I'll edit the original post.

12-16-2007, 11:56 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by geek42 Quote
I liked the idea of having a TOTALLY weather-resistant camera, body & lens. I live in the North Western part of the country where it is damp 8-months of the year.... so when I heard about the weather-resistant body.... and then the DA* lens, to me it would be a perfect match for me, for what I do and where I live. I will have to try and find the sample shots done with at lens.
Actually, I don't think you'll frequently use your camera under harsh weather conditions. The all-weather resistance is useful at very specific cases, where you can not take decent pictures due to the low transparency of the air. What you need is a dry box for storage of your camera and lens.
If you want to take birds' images, the focus length of current DA* is insufficient. You have to look for big lens in Sigma. BTW, I think Pentax is very good at fixed focus lens, that is P's strong point. Thus you don't have to put the emphasis on DA*, the limited series, old * series are good choices.
12-16-2007, 12:20 PM   #18
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My experience with my K10D is that it makes very good JPEG's "straight out of the box". It has two main settings for JPEG's - Bright image tone and Natural image tone. Natural image tone is set to default, and this mode is intented to be post processed further on. Bright image tone is for prints directly from the camera. Bright image tone has higher sharpness, saturation and contrast compared to Natural. It is very easy to switch to Bright and this can be saved so one only has to do it once. Of course both the Natural and Bright image tone can be further tweaked by the user.

Only the DA Star range is weather sealed from Pentax, and it exists only two of them right now. This spring will see the release of the 200 f/2.8, 300 f/4 and 60-250 f/4. More DA Stars will come later. They also features SDM - fast and near-silent focusing.

But if you consider the K10D as "previous generation", then it may be good for you to know that Pentax new camera generation will be announced late in January for expect release spring 2008. My personal prediction is that the new camera will be available in stores sometime in March.

It is true that the 40D has some goodies the K10D does not, like faster fps and autofocus, live view etc. Now, with Pentax coming out with a new camera - I'm confident that it will match and even go beyond many of the features in the 40D.
12-16-2007, 01:42 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by geek42 Quote
I forgot to mention that in my original post about the IS built into the camera, that is a feature that I really like. I did have my mind set on the K10D, but b/c of the few reviews on the DA* lens ( in my mind, why get a body that is weather resistant when the lens that ARE weather resistant really are not that good?) and the need to do editing to EVERY photo to make them look good..... so what I want ot know, are the DA* lens good and really, how is the image quality (relating to outdoor landscapes and wildlife)?
Your original assumption that K10 images are poor from the camera is probably from silly reviewers who neglected to make any changes to the settings that are provided with the camera. Even most of these reviewers say the images are fine if you do make these adjustments.

And you can batch process RAW into jpg in a relatively painless step, anway.

If you are not willing to do any PP to images, jpg or RAW, you are in for a disappointing time. I think. There is always minor cropping and staightening, for example.

12-16-2007, 02:12 PM   #20
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geek24 - congrats on wanting to get into dslr photography. This is always a tough question as to what body, but I would suggest that you start looking at your purchase another way. First, determine what you'll use your gear for from most to least:

Wildlife
Sports
Portrait
whatever...

Then, once you know that, determine what type of lenses you will need for those types of photography. You didn't state your budget, but the body should end up being the 'least' expensive part of the kit, IMHO. Once you determine the lenses you need, and balance that with how much you to spend, then you can tell if a system is going to work for you or not. On the surface, Canon would seem to be the best choice, but the problem is that their lenses get pretty expensive with IS built in. Pentax and Sony give you IS in body. The other problem that I see with Canon for amatuers is that the third party lens makers really make some outstanding long lenses. It's hard to justify the Canon 300mm F2.8 when the Sigma is much cheaper and still high quality... you get the point - pick your lenses realistically, not ideally. Also, consider weight of the lenses - that huge F2.8 won't do you any good if you can't pack it out to take pictures of the animals. :-)

After that, add in the body you want for each system. Then, you will have a better view, cost wise, of what all your options are. You might end up getting a cheaper body to afford you some better glass.

As for weather protection, I think it's a nice feature, but probably more for dust protection than rain. In the rain, get rain gear for your kit. No one (not even pro sports photogs with weather sealed everything) in their right mind is going to rely on little weather seals to keep out moisture when a plastic bag and rubber band add an extra measure of protection for $1. It's asking too much, imo.

As for JPEG and the pentax bodies, the default jpeg settings are set up to allow for better post processing. Sharpness and color saturation have to be done once you know where the image will be rendered (ie, on screen, at a printer, etc). If you do those steps before knowing what resolution and where your images will end up, you will end up with not the best results. The other camera manufacturers set up the defaults to cater to pixel peepers, pentax has routinely set up the defaults for serious post processing and best final results. It's really sad that people buy into the oversharpened jpegs.

As for post-processing, no one wants to spend any more time behind a computer than necessary, but post processing is a fact of life with digital (in film, the lab did it all). If you don't want to post process, you will never get the best quality out of the camera. The best advice is to get lightroom or a similar workflow-based application and learn to use it. I routinely get through editing a batch of images faster with lightroom than it took me to just browse through the images in photoshop.

Anyway, from your 'wildlife and outdoor' statement, I would recommend a kit like this:

12-24 Wide angle
18-50 F2.8 Sigma, Tamron, tokina, oem equiv
100-300 F4 Sigma (or others)
Some macro - maybe 70 F2.8 or 100mm F2.8
Whatever body you choose

You should be able to get an equivalent setup in any mount - you just need to decide which one you feel more comfortable with in the long run. I hope this helps.
12-16-2007, 02:56 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
My experience with my K10D is that it makes very good JPEG's "straight out of the box". It has two main settings for JPEG's - Bright image tone and Natural image tone. Natural image tone is set to default, and this mode is intented to be post processed further on. Bright image tone is for prints directly from the camera. Bright image tone has higher sharpness, saturation and contrast compared to Natural. It is very easy to switch to Bright and this can be saved so one only has to do it once. Of course both the Natural and Bright image tone can be further tweaked by the user.
I agree about natural taking excellent images right out of the box. However, it should be noted that 'Natural" is not intended to be processed further. It is intended to produce excellent results of people's faces and skin tones. It's a bit warmer and less contrasty than "Bright" which excels at shooting hard things like buildings, autos, equipment, etc.

From a "right out of the box" standpoint, most users will probably open the box and take some immediate shots of family and friends, possibly using the built in flash. "Natural" tone is the preferred setting for achieving nice results in these conditions.
12-16-2007, 03:02 PM   #22
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Both...

QuoteOriginally posted by geek42 Quote
Hello,

I'm finally able to upgrade from a point-n-shoot camera to a DSLR. My passion is taking outdoor and wildlife photos. I've been narrowing down my options to the K10D and the EOS 40D.

I love the fact that the K10D has a weather-resistant body, this feature really caught my eye. I also the weather resistant lens that Pentax has released, the DA* series. These two features are really making me consider the K10D and the DA* lens. What is causing me some hesitation in the decisions process is that I can't find and reviews on the lens, I'd figure they would be out there since the lens came out in February I believe. How are these lens? Do they produce good images? Are they just as tough as the k10D body?

Also, reading through the reviews I have found for the K10D, many have said that the the K10D produces images that are warm and also doesn't produce images with not so defined borders. I have heard that adjusting the photos in Photoshop will solve this issue, or tweaking the sharpness in the camera itself. What I really want is a camera that takes very good photos w/o the need for editing the photos.

I've been playing with the 40D too. I have read only raving review on this camera. The 40D produces great photos in both JPEG and RAW w/o the need to edit them in Photoshop. The camera feels very solid in my hands like the K10D. It does have a larger screen with Liveview, more MP,nad has a higher FPS (for those wildlife action images). They say it has "improves weather resistant seals", but I'm sure it doesn't compare to the k10D seals.

I feel that the k10D is a great camera, but what is really stopping me is that I fell that the DSLR market is making an evolution to the next level of technology and that the K10D is the previous level (much like the change from 32-bit to 64-bit computer chips). The DSLR camera that I do pick will be my camera for the next 3-5 year. I don't want to look back in 3 months and think that I made a poor choice in technology and that my camera is so very out dated. Also not finding many reviews on the DA* lens is really make me hesitant to get the K10D, what's the since in getting a weather resistant body when the DA* lens are not that good???

Any help regarding my issue will help me in the decision process. Thanks.
Both of them are "Fantastic"...Give me either one of them and I will do what they were designed to do. Now, if you don't want to spend a fortune on SR (shake resistant) lenses, there is only one choice. If you prefer ones glass over another go for that one. I like Pentax lenses. I like Canon lenses. I love the build quality and ergonomics of the K10D. I don't like the workmanship of the Canon. Especially with the battery grip which fits like an after thought. Where the Pentax melds like a fine silk glove on a hand. If shooting at 100-400 iso is your thing...It is the Pentax. High 800-1600 iso. Canon is a bit better. However in RAW the Pentax outshines the Canon...

So there is my short treatise on what my impressions are...

Voila
Ben
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12-16-2007, 03:42 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by ncallender Quote
geek24 - congrats on wanting to get into dslr photography. This is always a tough question as to what body, but I would suggest that you start looking at your purchase another way. First, determine what you'll use your gear for from most to least:

Wildlife
Sports
Portrait
whatever...

Then, once you know that, determine what type of lenses you will need for those types of photography. You didn't state your budget, but the body should end up being the 'least' expensive part of the kit, IMHO. Once you determine the lenses you need, and balance that with how much you to spend, then you can tell if a system is going to work for you or not. On the surface, Canon would seem to be the best choice, but the problem is that their lenses get pretty expensive with IS built in. Pentax and Sony give you IS in body. The other problem that I see with Canon for amatuers is that the third party lens makers really make some outstanding long lenses. It's hard to justify the Canon 300mm F2.8 when the Sigma is much cheaper and still high quality... you get the point - pick your lenses realistically, not ideally. Also, consider weight of the lenses - that huge F2.8 won't do you any good if you can't pack it out to take pictures of the animals. :-)

After that, add in the body you want for each system. Then, you will have a better view, cost wise, of what all your options are. You might end up getting a cheaper body to afford you some better glass.

As for weather protection, I think it's a nice feature, but probably more for dust protection than rain. In the rain, get rain gear for your kit. No one (not even pro sports photogs with weather sealed everything) in their right mind is going to rely on little weather seals to keep out moisture when a plastic bag and rubber band add an extra measure of protection for $1. It's asking too much, imo.

As for JPEG and the pentax bodies, the default jpeg settings are set up to allow for better post processing. Sharpness and color saturation have to be done once you know where the image will be rendered (ie, on screen, at a printer, etc). If you do those steps before knowing what resolution and where your images will end up, you will end up with not the best results. The other camera manufacturers set up the defaults to cater to pixel peepers, pentax has routinely set up the defaults for serious post processing and best final results. It's really sad that people buy into the oversharpened jpegs.

As for post-processing, no one wants to spend any more time behind a computer than necessary, but post processing is a fact of life with digital (in film, the lab did it all). If you don't want to post process, you will never get the best quality out of the camera. The best advice is to get lightroom or a similar workflow-based application and learn to use it. I routinely get through editing a batch of images faster with lightroom than it took me to just browse through the images in photoshop.

Anyway, from your 'wildlife and outdoor' statement, I would recommend a kit like this:

12-24 Wide angle
18-50 F2.8 Sigma, Tamron, tokina, oem equiv
100-300 F4 Sigma (or others)
Some macro - maybe 70 F2.8 or 100mm F2.8
Whatever body you choose

You should be able to get an equivalent setup in any mount - you just need to decide which one you feel more comfortable with in the long run. I hope this helps.
Thanks for the nice insight on the matter, I will definitely take what you said into account on my decision.

12-16-2007, 11:58 PM   #24
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I'm a K10D owner and these are my thoughts from another forum on the 40D -
QuoteQuote:
* Autofocus is near instantaneous. The focusing ring in manual focus mode won't actually stop when you reach the limit of the focus range. Travel is too short for my liking (less than a quarter turn)
* Build isn't much better than the 400D, it's made out of a lot of plastic and feels it. Ergonomics are still terrible. Why is the power switch on the rear panel, in the middle, near the bottom edge? And why does it have 3 settings with only On & Off marked?
* The viewfinder is very good, large, bright & clear.
* The 3" screen is also good. Low resolution was apparent though. The dial to scroll through the photos and the speed of which it did it was impressive.
* Similarly the 6.5fps framerate is amazingly quick when you actually use it, and lasts a full 10 seconds with a Sandisk Ultra II card.
* Where are half the dials? Metering modes, focusing modes (other than AF/MF switch on the lens - I prefer the switch on the body as per the K10D, which includes continuous & single modes), and focusing point selection are all menu options, as opposed to physical switches or dials on the K10D. They're things you often need to change to get the desired result. Flash compensation is quicker access though. There's no obvious way to change exposure compensation, but there is for flash compensation (which is much quicker to access than on the K10D). But the AF Drive, ISO, WB, metering mode, flash compensation, all require 2 presses of the buttons set ahead of the top information screen to set.
* Placement of buttons across the bottom of the rear screen is awkward, like the power switch.
* Far too many settings on the mode dial (stuff the scene mode shit... make people figure it out for themselves. Same goes for the Nikon D80. The D40/400D/K100D can keep it though, for noobs)
* The 17-85 isn't very well built either. Also a lot of plastic, no apparent metal? Duocam extension when zooming doesn't instil confidence. The owner was complaining that it vignettes like a nothing else (he said -2EV) wide open at 17mm. Downside of a 5x zoom I guess but this isn't even a constant aperture lens. IS is definitely not good for 4 stops compensation, just like the K10D's isn't whatever it says it is. The lens on its own has a RRP of $1099, available for $850.
12-17-2007, 12:59 PM   #25
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I see no point in waiting for the next camera, because let's face it, unlike film where much of the image quality was dependant on the film you put in after your purchase, the quality of digital cameras will continue to change for some time, and as a result, you will always be waiting and never get one.

As others have said, take a look, see which one you like, in terms of features, feel, ease of use etc, and go for it. If you are not bound to a set of pre-existing lenses you are free to do what you want. In the end, it's your money.

WHat do you give up if you buy a body now? look at it this way, let's guess a body costs $700. how many shots do you need to take at $3.00/ roll of film, $3.00 for processing and $0.20 per print to learn how to use your camera, and have some fun. At this kind of pricing you are looking at $10 per 24 shots processed, In my mind, your break even point is about 1700 shots. I am sure you will do more than that before the next body is on sale. (I did more than that in 17 days on vacation this year)
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