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11-12-2011, 05:53 PM   #16
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I'd say $2000-3000, but at the moment I couldn't make that happen.

11-12-2011, 06:01 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
You can fit about 70 FF sensors on a 300mm wafer. You can fit 180-200 APS-C sensors on a 300mm wafer.
So the yield math suggests 2.5x to 3x the 'cost' of an aps-c sensor. Back when the 5D came out, it was over 20 times. Going in the right direction!
11-12-2011, 11:32 PM   #18
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Somewhere around $3-3500 for me, maybe more if it was a really outstanding performer. I'm not a professional yet, so it's harder for me to justify this cost (especially with how good the K5 is), but I consistently find myself wanting a FF version of the K5. I still have several more lenses I'd buy before I bought a FF Pentax though, so I wouldn't drop the money on it for another year or so.
11-12-2011, 11:33 PM   #19
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A basic FF with no whistles and bells at $1500 is just fine.

11-13-2011, 12:01 AM   #20
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I have just picked up a second K5 for around US$920 here in Shanghai, the price of the K5 has dropped dramatically and I really think there may be something else about to be announced - unless this is just a pre-Xmas/Chinese New Year push. I would be surprised if the advances made in the cost of production that we would be asked to pay more than US$2,500 list and probably a bit cheaper on the street initially. You can pick up a new D700 for around US$2,500 - 2,800 if you shop around (used US$2,000) and I think that is the benchmark.
11-13-2011, 02:55 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
USD$1000 or less, 2nd hand a few years after release
+1!

I do think it would be in Pentax's interest to offer a FF camera. I think 3k would be a justifiable price for those who collect FA ltds. Make it compact and elegant and it will stand out in the marketplace.
11-13-2011, 03:04 AM   #22
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The price for the camera does not cover new lenses. Serious photographers may want to buy a FF camera, but that includes selling current APS-C lenses and replacing them with modern FF lenses: replace 50-135 with 80-200 add approx. $1000 price difference for the upgrade, buy new wide angles, ... The camera price will be 50-75% of the total cost for an upgrade. Even if you are working with FA lenses at the moment. All those zooms and longer telephoto lenses are designed for APS-C and new wide angles are necessary.
It is not easy to offer a FF camera and changing from a smaller format is also not as easy as buying a new camera. I keep upgrading my medium format camera with new backs from time to time. A larger sensor means new effective angles of view for each lens - need for new lenses. Larger file sizes require faster, bigger CF cards. Faster transfer speeds require faster interfaces, more storage space --> new computer.

A realistc price tag for a FF camera is probably $3000. This camera needs to compete not only with D700 and 5D, but will be top of the Pentax line also competing with the real pro models of other manufacturers. It will probably not be less expensive than basic Nikon/Canon FF models and needs to offer more.
11-13-2011, 05:40 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
USD$1000 or less, 2nd hand a few years after release

Never going to happen - a used D700 (how many years after release) is still US$2,000+

11-13-2011, 05:47 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
The price for the camera does not cover new lenses. Serious photographers may want to buy a FF camera, but that includes selling current APS-C lenses and replacing them with modern FF lenses: replace 50-135 with 80-200 add approx. $1000 price difference for the upgrade, buy new wide angles, ... The camera price will be 50-75% of the total cost for an upgrade. Even if you are working with FA lenses at the moment. All those zooms and longer telephoto lenses are designed for APS-C and new wide angles are necessary.
Someone listed all the Pentax lenses that would work on a new FF camera, I'm sure there were 10-15 lenses not including legacy lenses. Add maybe another 3 new FF lenses over the first year of release (maybe something like a 20-35, 28-75 & 70-200 and then update some of the Pentax classic lenses) and we're flying.

*wakes up*.
11-13-2011, 07:20 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Never going to happen - a used D700 (how many years after release) is still US$2,000+
And still has an auto-focus much better than any imaginary Pentax FF model.

Jason
11-13-2011, 07:22 AM   #26
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To make some summary:

- So the sensor, from the wafer is more expensive, maybe by a factor of 3 (or 4 tops), but it also needs a new housing (sensormodule) and electronics, wich will only be more expensive when it is designed especially for Pentax and not a ready sensor from a manufatuar like Sony. The electronics on that sensor are more expensive to make datastream flushing.
- The Shake Reduction system needs a new design. So that is a real expensive one. Some of it can go back into new APS-C SR system, but the main part is to make it work for that bigger sensor.
- New AF-module is important, but that goes also to APS-C camera's and new 645D.
- New electronic lay-out, image processor and datastorage and transport needs to be designed. Also expensive, but to be shared partly with APS-C and 645D.
- New housing design is needed. Starting costs are just making a mall and testing it, next to bringing it into production. That is more expensive then we may think. It is for this camera only, so there is hardly any sharing. My suggestion is to use the K-5 housing with attached grip to give room to all the electronics. In this way you save on development, making it cheaper.
- How advanced do we want it? Well that depends on how expensive we want it. I would settle for a fast camera (faster then K-5) with limitations. So SDXC and UHS-I support and speed. But maybe only one PRIME III processor (at least twice the speed of PRIME II), since making a dual is more expensive. Only 8 fps (and like 12-14 fps) makes the shutter cheaper. Having a shutter with only 200.000 actuations makes it cheaper.

I think that production of such a camera (that is the costs for the actual putting the camera together) isn't that much more expensive then making a K-5. There are parts in it that cost more (shutter, SR-system, AF-module, housing, image processing) then used in K-5, but putting them together is the same.

The summ of these designcosts are making the price for that new camera. The more you (expect to) sell of them, the cheaper it gets per unit. I think that a production of 100.000+ units in a lifespan of 3-4 years should be possible.

APS-H difference:
- APS-H sensor instead of Full Frame makes a difference. The amount of force that is generated with the shutter/mirror (wich can be smaller) is lower, so making that camera is cheaper. Same goes for the SR system (but I don't think that will save money, since most of it will be in design and not in production). Electronics won't change, but maybe the camera is a little faster, depending on the amount of pixels.
- So I guess this is not for saving a lot of money on the expected salesprice for the camera.

My guess is that when there is a new APS-C camera coming to follow the K-5 (K-3?) that has new AF/SR/electronics for the same price as K-5 started then a new topcamera (K-1? Full Frame/APS-H) can be going to the market for twice the price as that K-3 is going.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 11-13-2011 at 09:55 AM.
11-13-2011, 08:56 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
And still has an auto-focus much better than any imaginary Pentax FF model.

Jason
Is that what is called predictive opinion, a premonition or just BS ?
11-13-2011, 10:19 AM   #28
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didn't load up on DA's

QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
The price for the camera does not cover new lenses. Serious photographers may want to buy a FF camera, but that includes selling current APS-C lenses and replacing them with modern FF lenses:
And that's why I didn't go on a DA bandwagon. For my K20D (my first dSLR) I bought a very few DA's (4 of them), but my accumulation is overwhelmingly FF-compatible. So when Pentax-Ricoh releases an FF body or mountor, I'm ready.
11-13-2011, 10:27 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Greeneg Quote
As a corollary, I really wonder how many of us are professionals who can justify $3K or more as a business expense, or, in fact, most of truly intermediate amateurs who just want a camera that is dependable, high resolution, and moderately priced. I'm sure that the 645D is a marvelous device, but when it's all said and done it is an electronic device, and as such as a finite life-span. How many times can you make that investment; how often. In todays economy, high ticket items are cause for thought for most people, and I question how many cameras you can expect to sell in that price range. How many professionals have you seen shooting Pentaxs lately; they're almost always Canikons.......
My daughter's school pictures were taken with a Nikon D3000. Yeah, not even the latest model. For many or most professional applications, full frame is overkill and therefore emphatically not justified. If you're trying to make a serious business and watching your bottom line, affordable, replaceable, and good enough for the job beats the advantages of full-frame.

Of course, some professionals work in areas where it makes sense, but I'll wager that "pro" is a red herring here and that most full-frame shooters are serious enthusiasts, not day-jobbers.
11-13-2011, 11:02 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
my accumulation is overwhelmingly FF-compatible. So when Pentax-Ricoh releases an FF body or mountor, I'm ready.
Same here, I am poised and have up to 2000 tucked away for the new Pentax FF even though I have just bought a K5.

Bill
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