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12-20-2007, 04:48 AM   #16
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Great birds images, Hin! Like them very much!

12-20-2007, 05:58 AM   #17
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I believe kids today (hey! get off my lawn!) have grown to reply on "machinegunning" due to the inherent lag in current digital systems. Part of that is due to the metering and electronics, but most of it, IMHO, stems from an over-reliance on auto-focusing. There's no reason, that I can see, why a lens should rack back and forth in a series of similar shots. There's a time for AF and a time for high-FPS, and often they are not simultaneous.

As always, YMMV.
12-20-2007, 07:43 AM   #18
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I have watched this thread long enough to now have some fun and join in.

If we start with the guy on a bike, when I look at this I suspect it is a video, with a 30 frame per second rate but slow shutter speed, as evident by the lateral blurr of the hand railing. An action shooter would probably have had a higher shutter speed and have frozen more of the image.

if we want to discuss the other issue, specifically the issue of shutter lag, and personal reaction time, i.e. between when the brain decides that there is a shot and when the shutter fires, I have to agree, that has nothing to do with frame rate, and everything to do with knowing the sport/action you are shooting. It is not about reacting to something terribly gone wrong, but recognizing before it happens that it will. It is called anticipation.

From that point on, it is a function of frame rate and luck, if you start to fire a burst.

Let's consider falling 5 feet off a horse. If it is a clean drop, the laws of physics suggest that from start to finish takes 0.56 seconds. therefore even the best camera might only have 3-4 shots in the drop (i.e. before part of the rider is on the ground, but after they began falling). Getting one at the right point is simply luck even with good anticipation. If you only begin when you see the start of the fall, the first .4 seconds is completly lost in reaction time. Don't believe that, simply look at any NHRA drag race, a "perfect" run has a reaction time of about 0.4 seconds. It is what all drivers (professionals) are judged on, and the release of the brakes in a drag race is accomplished by the push of a button. (sounds a lot like photography doesn't it)
12-20-2007, 08:28 AM   #19
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In a word NO; but it doesn't wash the dishes or take out the trash either---I do. After a couple beers I can, in fact, take a shot like you presented. Why would I want too (it sucks)?

Multi-burst photography is a silly feature for silly people; your original premise is absurd, final conclusions rediculous.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kguru Quote
Just wondering, how fast AF how many fps does it need to do this shot?
(note the guy in mid-air) :-))

From a news website; credit to the photographer but I have no name!


12-20-2007, 09:39 AM   #20
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You have some beautiful bird shots there Hin.

I got that series just out of anticipating that something was going wrong with her ride at that point.
Call it an educated guess if you want, but there's no possible way I can know exactly what part of the fall she'd be in when the shutter clicked with any camera.

I'm really not overly happy with those pictures. I'd rather be able to see the riders expression, and be able to count her stray hair.
Like this picture, taken with the same manual focus lens, same camera, and again in full manual.
12-20-2007, 09:47 AM   #21
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that is one seriously beautiful rider too Stu!
12-20-2007, 09:59 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by little laker Quote
You have some beautiful bird shots there Hin.

I got that series just out of anticipating that something was going wrong with her ride at that point.
Call it an educated guess if you want, but there's no possible way I can know exactly what part of the fall she'd be in when the shutter clicked with any camera.

I'm really not overly happy with those pictures. I'd rather be able to see the riders expression, and be able to count her stray hair.
Like this picture, taken with the same manual focus lens, same camera, and again in full manual.
Stu

I like your honesty about the image sequence and the fact you had no real control over where in the fall she would be with respect to when the shutter tripped, I think all would agree that is somewhat up to luck, helped by your feeling something was wrong with the ride.

What I am interested in is your general exposure settings. To me, you seemed to have a high overcast to sunny day and fairly bright, that would let you stop down and still have reasonable shutter speed. Is that correct?

For all those asking about tracking of autofocus, it is important to point out that if the light permits stopping down, your depth of field almost insures any shot will be in focus.
12-20-2007, 11:02 AM   #23
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Wait for that exact split second when you anticipate the action is going to provide the best capture out of, say 50 possible outcomes?

Sorry, but I don't buy that way of thinking.

Sounds to me like landscape photographers waiting for the precise time when the sun is just setting behind a mountaintop. Or a studio photographer with his/her lens trained on a model's face waiting for a natural-looking smile to cross the lips of his/her subject.

Even that doesn't always hold true, though. Ben has admitted taking approx. 500 shots in 10 minutes during a shoot, so even fashion photogs shotgun at times.

For nature (and presumably sports) photographers, I don't believe there is such a thing as too high a frame rate, or too large a buffer, or too fast AF. Anticipating that split second when a bird, flying by at 30mph, turns its head and makes eye contact? Sorry, I couldn't do it if my life depended on it.

12-20-2007, 11:02 AM   #24
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A properly prepared photographer doesn't need high FPS rates. What the heck did photographers do in the old film days? Some had motordrives of course, but "most" of these topped out at 5-6fps. Unless you had a bulk film back you ran out of film in 3-4 seconds. How much action was missed while changing film for each burst? Therefore, most sports photographers shot 2-3 fps very carefully. Guys with 9fps cameras these days use more of a "spray and pray" tactic. Press the shutter before anything happens and keep it mashed until the event is over. LOL What a lot of useless photos to go through?

I shot this with a K110D in single shot mode at a local bike race...



Note the bike in mid-air... I was in the right place at the right time and watched the riders with my left eye while looking thru the camera with my right eye (hard to learn but helpful once you get used to it)

Sure, high frame rates can be helpful at times and in certain extremely fast paced activities, but they are no cure for not paying attention and shooting at the right moment.

Last edited by MRRiley; 12-20-2007 at 11:15 AM.
12-20-2007, 11:20 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Stu

I like your honesty about the image sequence and the fact you had no real control over where in the fall she would be with respect to when the shutter tripped, I think all would agree that is somewhat up to luck, helped by your feeling something was wrong with the ride.

What I am interested in is your general exposure settings. To me, you seemed to have a high overcast to sunny day and fairly bright, that would let you stop down and still have reasonable shutter speed. Is that correct?
Thanks Lowell,
That is pretty well exactly what I did there.
Plus I chose ISO400, instead of my normal 200, allowing me to shoot just that little bit faster.

That setup worked good for me that day, giving me several keepers.

QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
I shot this with a K110D in single shot mode at a local bike race...



Note the bike in mid-air...
Nice shot Mike.
And I have to say OUCH
I've been in a couple of accidents like that way back when I roadraced.
Plus it's where I got my first broken bone.
12-20-2007, 11:32 AM   #26
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I have done enough horse show photography, to almost be able to pick out the rider/horse combo thats going to have trouble and just follow them in a pan.

Single AF, single jump, one shot, move on, is what i do.
Unless its a slide stop in reining, then i shoot at 4 fps. I still have not mastered a one shot slide, and get the front leg right.

I see other show photog's machine gun the jumps, but unless the first shot is just in the correct spot, you'll still get 6-7 poor photos and no sales.

Si i guess i'm saying, if you can pan the action, getting something in 1 maybe 2 shots is doable.

Dave
12-20-2007, 11:40 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentkon52 Quote
I have done enough horse show photography, to almost be able to pick out the rider/horse combo thats going to have trouble and just follow them in a pan.

Single AF, single jump, one shot, move on, is what i do.
Unless its a slide stop in reining, then i shoot at 4 fps. I still have not mastered a one shot slide, and get the front leg right.

I see other show photog's machine gun the jumps, but unless the first shot is just in the correct spot, you'll still get 6-7 poor photos and no sales.

Si i guess i'm saying, if you can pan the action, getting something in 1 maybe 2 shots is doable.

Dave
This is the point that many people are trying to make. You must know your sport intimately. You must know it well enough that you can anticipate the action. I have taken fine soccer and track and field images, printed in the papers. I took the early ones with
  • Pentax. The original. two shutter dials, no automation. (Not a Pentax S. 1/25 not 1/30 shutter speed sequence.)
  • Takumar 135/3.5 lens, preset diaphragm.
  • Hand held light meter
  • Practice, pracctice, practice.
12-20-2007, 11:42 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by little laker Quote
Nice shot Mike.
And I have to say OUCH
I've been in a couple of accidents like that way back when I roadraced.
Plus it's where I got my first broken bone.
Thanks Stu... Fortunately I can report that neither rider was seriously hurt. Badly scuffed and bruised but no broken bones or concusions. They were taken care of within about 30 seconds because the EMTs were prepositioned at that corner. Lots of mash-ups every race since its a tight turn after a fast downhill. Which of course, was why I was there too. Naturally I hope not to see anyone hurt but if it's gonna happen it was gonna happen there and I was able to give 2 lucky riders a shot that they will remember for a long time.
12-20-2007, 01:28 PM   #29
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Good shot, Mike!

And, Stu, where have you been hiding the girl riding English? (where's the WOW icon?)
12-20-2007, 04:24 PM   #30
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I posted that photo a while ago Tom, and yes she is sweet.

I have several English riding friends, including a woman who was on the Canadian Nationals but got pulled out of the Olympics at the last minute, plus Terry Jack's daughter (as in the singer who sang "We had joy, We had fun")
Although I haven't seen either of them in a while.
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