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12-11-2011, 04:25 AM   #16
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APS-H sensor

By implementing the "blinking shutter" the shake reduction system would no longer be needed thus making room for a larger sensor than APS-C in today's Pentax K5 / K7 body . So the cost of this intermediate sensor camera should be closer to Pentax K-5 ( but with a 20 MP sensor sufficient for professional image quality ) than to a newly developed FF and Pentax would have kept it's promise not to give us a FF camera ... Lots of advantages , no disadvantage , plus the glory of being the first introducing a new feature in the DLSR market ! Go for it Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company , nothing to loose , a lot to be gained , don't mention my giving you the idea , you're welcome !

12-11-2011, 06:27 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Livanz Quote
By implementing the "blinking shutter" the shake reduction system would no longer be needed thus making room for a larger sensor than APS-C in today's Pentax K5 / K7 body .
I still don't understand how you have reached this conclusion. Pressing a shutter button is not the only factor in camera shake. Muscle movement contributes to camera shake, and there is no way to eliminate muscle movement. The longer the focal length of the lens, the more important shake reduction is for reducing the effect of muscle movement which occurs simply by hand-holding the camera, not just from pressing a shutter button.
12-14-2011, 08:22 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well not if Pentax would put it in the competition with other brands APS-C camera's. So new APS-H Pentax camera against Nikon D400 and Canon 7D Mark II.
Just being APS-H would put it in 'competition' with existing APS-H cameras. It doesn't matter how Ricoh/Pentax would market it, it would be compared to those other cameras.

It would also give another set of 'equivalent focal lengths' to deal with.
12-15-2011, 05:13 AM   #19
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There is less competition in the APS-H range than either the APS-C or FF crowded world . Another "set of equivalent focal lenght" isn't necessarily a bad thing , on the contrary , if you own both an APS-C and an APS-H camera there would be more flexibility provided one knows what his intention is in the first place ( or buy a 17-300mm F6,3-9,5 zoom instead , but then the addeed image quality of a 20MP sensor would be useless ...) .
Blinking WITH BOTH EYES is a natural reflex which induces far less muscular tension than pushing the conventional shutter trigger and would become useful at , let's say , 1/25 - 1/5 s . And I don't mean replacing the shutter trigger button but the shake reduction system which is bulky and inneficient ( 1 EV Falk Lumo: Pentax shake reduction revisited ) where it is most needed at longer focal range . It may be so that even a FF sensor would fit in a Pentax K-5 / K-7 body without the shake reduction mechanism ( I am not an engineer to calculate that but there must be somebody at Pentax or Ricoh able to do it ...) . So how about a FF 21-24MP sensor in the K-5 / K-7 body at a reasonable price , wouldn't it be lovely ?

12-15-2011, 06:06 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Livanz Quote
There is less competition in the APS-H range than either the APS-C or FF crowded world . Another "set of equivalent focal lenght" isn't necessarily a bad thing , on the contrary , if you own both an APS-C and an APS-H camera there would be more flexibility provided one knows what his intention is in the first place ( or buy a 17-300mm F6,3-9,5 zoom instead , but then the addeed image quality of a 20MP sensor would be useless ...) .
Blinking WITH BOTH EYES is a natural reflex which induces far less muscular tension than pushing the conventional shutter trigger and would become useful at , let's say , 1/25 - 1/5 s . And I don't mean replacing the shutter trigger button but the shake reduction system which is bulky and inneficient ( 1 EV Falk Lumo: Pentax shake reduction revisited ) where it is most needed at longer focal range . It may be so that even a FF sensor would fit in a Pentax K-5 / K-7 body without the shake reduction mechanism ( I am not an engineer to calculate that but there must be somebody at Pentax or Ricoh able to do it ...) . So how about a FF 21-24MP sensor in the K-5 / K-7 body at a reasonable price , wouldn't it be lovely ?
I have no particular opinions on APS-H size of sensor except to say that if Pentax is going to do a larger sensor than APS-C then they might as well do full frame 35mm. APS-H doesn't give any particular benefits.

With regard to elimination of shake reduction, there are two points. First of all, the competition has shake reduction available, either in its lenses or camera bodies or both. For Pentax just to eliminate would put them behind, even if your blinking idea helped in some situations. Second, Falk has said that shake reduction mechanism probably adds only about 3 to 4mm of width and depth -- certainly not worth cutting from a size standpoint. The other thing to realize is that the study was looking at shutter blur on the K7, which seemed most pronounced between 1/60-1/100 second. Shake reduction does continue to work there, but just helps stabilize 1 stops compared to 2 to 3 stops at other levels. This is somewhat better on the K5 where the shutter is a little more damped.

Cost of such a camera will probably be just a hair below 3000 dollars, would be my guess. No bargain sale prices here!
12-15-2011, 06:26 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
APS-H doesn't give any particular benefits.
Yes it does:

FF would mean Pentax would have to introduce a new body AND a whole new / revived lensline to a market on which competitors are already active and experienced.

Most DA's are fully usable on the APS-H format. So Pentax wouldn't have to release a new / revived lensline. The competition in APS-H isn't very big. I think it's even getting smaller.

And, I may be wrong here, please correct me if so, that inbody SR can be maintained more easily with APS-H.
12-15-2011, 09:27 PM   #22
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I have to agree with Clavius that a 20MP APS-H sensor would make more sense than a 24MP FF sensor ( we wouldn't be able to distinguish between results from the two with the naked eye anyway ) , the camera would be affordable and many of the current Pentax lenses could be used , both arguments meaning that no massive FF investment in the near future would be necessary , I for one would be quite happy with a K-5 / K-7 body with a APS-H 20MP sensor inside ... I don't mean that a "blinking eye shutter trigger" is for sure better than in camera shake reduction ( just give it a try Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company , that's all ) but if I had to choose between a 20MP sensor and the SR module in a K-5 body ( Pentax K-2 ? ) I would rather have the larger sensor and the extra image quality . Others may disagree of course but wouldn't then K-5 suit them perfectly ?
12-15-2011, 11:51 PM   #23
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Which camera's (currently in production) use APS-H?

12-16-2011, 03:48 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by DaveHolmes Quote
Which camera's (currently in production) use APS-H?
Canon 1D Mark IV wich even is seen by some people as a professional camera!
12-16-2011, 04:38 AM   #25
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I forgot to mention that the advantage that Pentax will have with APS-H of not having to redevelope a whole new lensline works both ways:

Lots of newly entered Pentaxians have only DA lenses. Myself for example, I have 7 DA's, but only 1 FA. Pentax going APS-H will give such people an upgrade-path, without having to replace all aquired lenses. That's an upgrade path, that most of us can afford too!
12-16-2011, 05:19 AM   #26
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What are the prospects?

* APS-C -- nominally 16.7x25,1mm for 30.1mm diagonal
* my K20D -- actually 15.6x23.4mm for 28.1mm diagonal
* APS-H -- Canon has 19.0x28.7mm for 34.4mm diagonal
* FF - supposedly has 36.0x24.9mm for 43.3mm diagonal -- but I don't know CaNiko's sensor sizes. Probably smaller. I'm too lazy to look those up. Feh.

Going to APS-H means that a 35mm lens is 'normal', 40mm is long-normal; 58mm is close-portrait, 75mm is medium, 100mm is far-portrait; 28mm is wide -- and ultrawide starts around 21mm. Any 14mm would have an enormous view! And my DA10-17, ooh ooh! Hmmm... Does this sound like a match for current Pentax lens production? 10-14-15-21-31-35-40-43-50-55-70-77-85-100, many of those are magic numbers for an APS-H sensor. Hmmm...
______________________________________

EDIT: I have just been converted. Pentax-Ricoh should go APS-H. Our wide-ish lenses will mean so much more. Canon wasn't so dumb after all. [/me prepares to be lynched]

Last edited by RioRico; 12-16-2011 at 05:35 AM.
12-16-2011, 05:41 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
What are the prospects?

* APS-C -- nominally 16.7x25,1mm for 30.1mm diagonal
* my K20D -- actually 15.6x23.4mm for 28.1mm diagonal
* APS-H -- Canon has 19.0x28.7mm for 34.4mm diagonal
* FF - supposedly has 36.0x24.9mm for 43.3mm diagonal -- but I don't know CaNiko's sensor sizes. Probably smaller. I'm too lazy to look those up. Feh.

Going to APS-H means that a 35mm lens is 'normal', 40mm is long-normal; 58mm is close-portrait, 75mm is medium, 100mm is far-portrait; 28mm is wide -- and ultrawide starts around 21mm. Any 14mm would have an enormous view! And my DA10-17, ooh ooh! Hmmm... Does this sound like a match for current Pentax lens production? 10-14-15-21-31-35-40-43-50-55-70-77-85-100, many of those are magic numbers for an APS-H sensor. Hmmm...
______________________________________

EDIT: I have just been converted. Pentax-Ricoh should go APS-H. Our wide-ish lenses will mean so much more. Canon wasn't so dumb after all. [/me prepares to be lynched]
It is the wide angles that I would have the biggest question about with any sensor bigger than APS-C. I am sure the 10-17 wouldn't work on APS-H. I very much doubt that the DA *16-50 would work either as it vignettes fairly fiercely at 16mm on APS-C.

Anyway, unless you have higher pixel density than the current crop of full frame sensors, there just isn't any point to APS-H over full frame. Just crop your image to APS-H, or APS-C dimensions (or any thing else you want) or, better yet, frame it in such a way that it doesn't need cropping.
12-16-2011, 05:42 AM   #28
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If you thought the far borders of the 10-17 are crappy now... (Don't get me wrong though, I think the 10-17 is a great and FUN lens.)

Does anybody know if inbody SR can still be applied with APS-H in current body sizes? Like the size comparable to that of a K5 or K20d?
12-16-2011, 10:03 AM - 1 Like   #29
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More on APS-C and APS-H cameras | Articles | Worx Gallery

Worth reading this , you'll be completely illuminated or plunged in total dakness ... My point was that an upgraded K-5 with a APS-H 20MP sensor should cost a lot less than a newly developped FF and there would be considerable improvement of the image quality . And the real professional photographers can afford Pentax 645 D to compete with top of the line Nikons and Canons and Sonys .
12-16-2011, 11:01 AM   #30
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I may be missing something, but what APS-H cameras are there besides Canon? Canon does not share their sensors and new APC-H sensor made by Sony only for Pentax cameras will cost not that much less then FF sensor that is allready being produced for several clients.
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