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01-18-2012, 07:21 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by ducdao Quote
So I think the general consensus here is that if everything being equal a lens has somewhat a subtle impact on the color output, not the sensor/camera.

The above statement is also what I observe while shooting with all my Pentax DSLR bodies, of course I only shoot RAW.
I think the sensor still has an effect, but if you are comparing two cameras with almost identical sensors (for example the K-5 and D7000, or the D90/D300 and K-x), you would see almost no difference in terms of colors when working with the RAW files. I suspect that if you compared the RAW files from two somewhat different sensors, say a K-5 and Canon 7D sensor, you might find some differences (in terms of colors) even in the RAW files.

01-18-2012, 08:05 PM   #17
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Here's my comparison shot... cropped @100%
K-x, IS0-100, 1/400s, f/8 both @70mm
image was downsized by Google so it's a bit pixelized
01-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #18
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underexposure/overexposure tendencies affect 'color'

QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
Here's my comparison shot... cropped @100%
K-x, IS0-100, 1/400s, f/8 both @70mm
image was downsized by Google so it's a bit pixelized





I think what you're seeing there is the effect of a higher T-stop (not F-stop) value for the second zoom - in other words, it underexposed just a tad, making the colors seem darker/richer.

This brings up a point, something that occured to me - I wonder if a lot of the Pentax 'color' difference people think they see can be attributed to pentax's tendancy to slightly underexpose compared to CaNikon. This is done on purpose, because IIRC it ties in to the way Pentax deals with noise (I think Falk started an interesting thread about that a couple years ago.)

This recent thread shows that a little bit: ---> Axl: Canon 50 1.4 vs DA* 55

That said, of course jpeg engines really do things differently between manuafcturers, so if you're shooting jpeg, you might see a distinctive look. And lenses do often bring a color shift, which can be dealt with in post, but often is there... Most of my Tamrons have had a very slight yellow cast, a few of my Takumars shoot cool... but my DA35ltd seems absolutely perfect, rich, vibrant but true colors.


.
01-19-2012, 02:36 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
As for lenses, yes, there can be a subtle difference lens to lens, but it would be an almost miraculous coincidence if each and every Pentax lens somehow shared similar characteristics that were identifiable different from Canon or Nikon. Statistically, it is practically a foregone conclusion that there will be more difference between any two different Pentax lenses than between the "average" across all Pentax versus Canon or Nikon lenses.
As I understand it, the coatings are manufacturer specific. The coatings might be what sets manufacturer X's lenses apart from manufacturer Y's lenses? I don't know how much the coatings influence colour, compared to the optical design.

Regards,
--Anders.

01-19-2012, 07:36 AM   #20
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I always shoot raw whether I'm using Pentax or Canon.....Whatever lenses I use on the Canon, some are very expensive ones, I still don't get vivid colours like I do with my Pentax! I think Canon is more sensitive to light, whereas Pentax is more sensitive to colours!
01-19-2012, 07:49 AM   #21
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Here you can see the colour-depth of three different camera. I suspect that the colour spectrum the cameras produce are a bit different therefore they probably pick up slightly diferent colours. Though the Nikon and the Pentax got the same sensor but are tweaked a bit differently.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-came...(brand3)/Canon
01-20-2012, 12:16 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Neel1 Quote
I always shoot raw whether I'm using Pentax or Canon.....Whatever lenses I use on the Canon, some are very expensive ones, I still don't get vivid colours like I do with my Pentax! I think Canon is more sensitive to light, whereas Pentax is more sensitive to colours!
Then could you post some samples, same scene under same light, taken with the same exposure, same WB, etc, processed with same software?
01-20-2012, 05:05 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by wlachan Quote
People are confused. People see what they want to see. PP determines the colour, period.
Eh...not exactly. There ARE differences in the color rendition of lenses. Yes, that can be fixed to a great degree in PP, but the fact remains that the starting point is not the same with all lenses. And sometimes, that small degree of "something" makes all the difference.

01-20-2012, 11:38 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
... but the fact remains that the starting point is not the same with all lenses. And sometimes, that small degree of "something" makes all the difference.
This. The starting point can greatly influence the rest of the PP.
01-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #25
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As an aside, people should realize that RAW files all tend to look a bit flat and dull before you do anything with them.
01-20-2012, 12:07 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
As an aside, people should realize that RAW files all tend to look a bit flat and dull before you do anything with them.
That's why we must use RAW for comparisons, not JPG.
01-20-2012, 01:15 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by ducdao Quote
That's why we must use RAW for comparisons, not JPG.
And it depends on your RAW converter. It is very hard for different people to compare apples to apples unless it is under controlled conditions. In the end, it doesn't matter all that much as you can get any color to become any other color you like in PP. And if you find yourself having to do the same thing over and over for (say) a certain lens to get to a preferred "starting point", then you can make a preset or saved action to always apply those settings to that lens. Post processing is work, in the darkroom or on the computer. Always has been.
01-20-2012, 01:48 PM   #28
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Image processor calibration and lenses positively affect the output, so I don't dismiss someone who seems to prefer one or other brand (or even a particular camera).

For instance, I get widly different results if I use DA, FA or A lenses in a digital body. The older lenses render warmer tones, and the Pentax-A 35-100mm in particular renders delicious red tones, as opposed to the DA which seems to blow out on reds and purples. In the same way, I always liked the results from K-7 and K20D at ISO 100 or less, rendered very natural tones. They probably tweaked those lines differently, or maybe the sensors from that time had different characteristics.

So the results can vary noticeably, even when comparing RAW files.

It's the same with audio recording. Just because in the end you get an AIFF file, it's naive to think you'll get the same results using different microphones, valvulated or solid-state pre-amps, etc. For instance, you can even try to process the file to sound like it was recorded on a valvulated pre-amp when it didn't, but since you're already starting from a different recording, the result is never quite the same and for trained ears it shows. I mention valvulated pre-amps here because it's one studio item that is still analogic, since no one figured out how to reproduce its rich nuances in a digital way yet.

With lenses and image sensors (which involves analog-digital conversors), it's the same thing.

Last edited by hcarvalhoalves; 01-20-2012 at 02:06 PM.
01-20-2012, 02:44 PM   #29
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Old truism: What we think we see, what we want to see, what the camera+lens see, and what's really there (if anything), aren't the same.

Data output from a digital sensor depends on hardware; the emergent image depends on software. It's all totally malleable. We can readily tweak any color or tone to be whatever we want, or we can default to settings dictated by the designers. I don't accept those "default-in-camera-PP" results as being 'native' to a specific camera or brand; they're just the defaults and they can be changed in-camera too. Even my oldest dumbest P&S digicams allow setting contrast, saturation, sharpness. It's not hard to make any digicam emulate the 'look' of almost any other.

Bottom line: It's more nurture than nature.
01-20-2012, 04:10 PM   #30
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very complex issue, imo. I have no problem with the notion that the brands DO have individual traits that are inherent to them. Even if the same sensor is used, how the data is shifted from the sensor may differ and that may leave an imprint that actually cannot be removed later? post production off-camera can only work with the data that it has, so possible that that initial data differs slightly? the blending of color data in scenes may be inherent to the brands methods of shifting electrical signals from the sensor?


the other option that i did think of is whether different people are attracted to specific looks of the brands default results, and so sub-consciously the users still search for that look even when raw-processing? They like particular characteristics and seek out ways to emphasise those? in other words, for example a Pentax fan is temperamentally biased towards Pentax skin-tones and therefore will always end up with that result because that's what they "like". That said, it seems to be difficult to replicate one brands "look" in another brands images - whether that's because of subtle differences in the raw data from my first paragraph, or simply because there are so many variables that would have to be mixed and sorted that can impact on other variables that it's near impossible to get the mix exactly right, i'm not sure.


anyway, for whatever reason, be it my imagination or not, i think pentax shoots people better than other brands. but then i also think my K10 shoots people better than my Dad's K20. perhaps i'm just seeing what i want to see. but i'm sticking to that opinion no matter what
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