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02-03-2012, 10:04 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Markbrumbaugh Quote
What I meant was I want my eyeball to look thru the lens, not to look at a screen at arms length like a cell phone.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I have no interest in arms' length shooting, either. But mirrorless doesn't force this on us - electronic viewfinders (EVF) are help up to the eyeball just as optical viewfinders are. It's just that the K-01 in particular doesn't happen to have an EVF. Hopefully, a future model in this series will. And it's at that point I'll take notice. EVF technology has advanced rapidly in the last couple of years, and even if it's not currently quite as good as optical overall, that difference could be diminished by the time a Pentax mirrorless camera features one. And the potential advantages of an EVF - being able to have a dim scene brightened, being anle to zoom in in order to focus, etc - are pretty exciting.

02-04-2012, 05:29 AM   #62
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I guess that some people do not really understand what mirror-less actually is. Mirror-less does not imply that there is no eye-level viewfinder (as I said earlier in this thread). And articulated LCD screens are available on certain dSLRs (not yet on Pentax though, maybe next week), so a mirror-less is not a requirement for that.
02-04-2012, 07:53 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Markbrumbaugh Quote
Want to pretend it is a cell phone? TTL rules.
Mirrorless cameras still meter through the lens.
02-04-2012, 08:06 AM   #64
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I am looking forward to a K-mount camera that has reasonably fast contrast AF - no more back or front focusing. Focus peaking sounds fantastic for using manual focus lenses. I don't mind the thickness of the K-01, by the time you put a K-mount adapter on something line a NEX you have increased the thickness. I am guessing that with the lessons learned from the K-01, we will see a follow-on model with a clip-on or internal EVF.

02-04-2012, 08:55 AM   #65
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I think something that gets lost in these discussions sometimes is that mirrorless represents a collection of immature technologies, many of which are truly in their infancy. We are only looking at a very early snapshot of what's to come.

Making categorical statements like "contrast detect autofocus is inherently worse than phase detect autofocus" is a pretty ignorant thing to say. The reality is that it is currently slower, but computing power increases all the time, and PDAF has had a few decades of refinement on CDAF. I'd invite anyone here to go and check the performance of the first autofocusing SLRs and get back to me if you don't think the technology has improved markedly.

The same goes for the visual delay on image preview, low-light performance of the displays, dynamic range of the display devices, bla bla bla. My biggest long-term concerns regarding mirrorless have nothing to do with any of these things, because I know they will come a long way in a very short time with the full weight of market pressure building up behind mirrorless.

The thing I worry about is battery life. The situations where I would find mirrorless to be most compelling for my own uses -- backcountry landscape photography, where you want a small machine and composing off an LCD when mounted on a tripod is frankly more comfortable and precise than craning your neck to find the eyepiece -- are also the same situations where battery life is a concern. I carried my K-7 2200 miles along a 6-month thruhike of the Appalachian Trail in 2010, and I was able to go weeks without recharging despite daily use of my camera, but I never used Liveview. Nowadays, I use it all the time, and I'm thankful I'm never far from an electrical outlet.

Still, I fantasize about the day I can bring a small, ruggedized, weather-resistant, full-frame mirrorless camera on long backpacking trips with me.
02-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I have no interest in arms' length shooting, either
You guys sound like you either have no elbows or you haven't figured out what they're for.
02-04-2012, 04:30 PM   #67
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What's so difficult about shooting like this? Just need to change one's mindset.

02-04-2012, 04:37 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
What's so difficult about shooting like this? Just need to change one's mindset.
It's very tiring, for one thing. For basic eye-level shooting with a variety of lenses, I don't think you can beat the agility of having it right up to your eyeball. If it was a highly accurate way to point at things and be steady, then believe me the military would have long ago invented a two-handed gun (that doesn't need a support) that you hold the same way...

02-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
It's very tiring, for one thing. For basic eye-level shooting with a variety of lenses, I don't think you can beat the agility of having it right up to your eyeball. If it was a highly accurate way to point at things and be steady, then believe me the military would have long ago invented a two-handed gun (that doesn't need a support) that you hold the same way...
Guns experience recoil, cameras don't. One can still prop one's elbows with a mirrorless camera, plus there is definitely less vibration in a mirrorless camera.
02-04-2012, 04:47 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Guns experience recoil, cameras don't. One can still prop one's elbows with a mirrorless camera, plus there is definitely less vibration in a mirrorless camera.
It is still tiring. If I just compose and shoot, it is fine, but I wouldn't want to have to sit there holding it up for any length of time as you need to do for some situations.
02-04-2012, 11:50 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
You guys sound like you either have no elbows or you haven't figured out what they're for.
OK, then, I have no interest in shooting at forearms' length, either. I have a much harder time seeing the LCD than seeing a viewfinder, I can't hold the camera nearly as steadily, I take up more space, and exposing the LCD image in this fashion is rude and distracting to others in many sotuations (eg, concert shooting). It's fine for occasional snapshots or perhaos for tripod work, but not for the type of photography I do.
02-05-2012, 03:05 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
OK, then, I have no interest in shooting at forearms' length, either.
Well, once you flex your elbows, it also becomes impossible to hold the camera at "forearms length". Unless you are photographing your toes, your forearms should be at an angle to your body and not extended out from it.

I am just tired of listening to this "arms length" strawman argument. And I don't like it made into "forearms length" either. Why don't you guys just say that your interest is in having a camera body over your face. It is perfectly accurate and with some tweaks, you can even use it as a pickup line.
02-05-2012, 07:11 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Well, once you flex your elbows, it also becomes impossible to hold the camera at "forearms length". Unless you are photographing your toes, your forearms should be at an angle to your body and not extended out from it.

I am just tired of listening to this "arms length" strawman argument. And I don't like it made into "forearms length" either. Why don't you guys just say that your interest is in having a camera body over your face. It is perfectly accurate and with some tweaks, you can even use it as a pickup line.
Why are you splitting hairs as to how far away from your face you have to hold the camera?
02-05-2012, 07:23 AM   #74
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Honestly.. I wouldn't use that camera without a tripod. Imagine trying to hold a DA*60-250 steady and track something like that,. I'm guessing to would be impossible. I brace myself on anything I can find and brace my arms using a long lens. On a tripod, with landscape it would be fine. Unless it had a tiny lens , but I have an Optio point and shoot that would be much more manageable... I find it hard to believe you can prevent camera shake with a long lens and your arms extended. I guess it just depends on what you expect for IQ. If the IQ is better than my K20D I might buy one as a strictly landscape camera, and relegate my K20D to wildlife.
02-05-2012, 07:29 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Honestly.. I wouldn't use that camera without a tripod. Imagine trying to hold a DA*60-250 steady and track something like that,. I'm guessing to would be impossible. I brace myself on anything I can find and brace my arms using a long lens. On a tripod, with landscape it would be fine. Unless it had a tiny lens , but I have an Optio point and shoot that would be much more manageable... I find it hard to believe you can prevent camera shake with a long lens and your arms extended. I guess it just depends on what you expect for IQ. If the IQ is better than my K20D I might buy one as a strictly landscape camera, and relegate my K20D to wildlife.
If someone told me that they were planning to buy the K-01 and use long lenses for wildlife, I'd promptly steer them towards the K-5, K-r, or their successors. I've used the Panasonic GH2 with the 100-300mm (200-600 EQ) with both the EVF and rear LCD. The image stabilization helped, but I was much more stable with the EVF.

The K-01 is not the camera for that kind of photography. And that's ok.
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