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01-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
Using a FF viewfinder after shooting with 1.5x crops is a huge difference, and can't be overstated (especially for MF).
I hadn't even considered that until I happened to pick up a 5D in a shop one day. The viewfinder was HUGE! I forgot that obviously a smaller sensor = smaller viewfinder. Reason enough to hope for a 24x36 sensor!

Even if it will never happen, given the dearth of new "FF" lenses...

01-04-2008, 12:49 PM   #17
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Glad you're happy..

Though, the most important qualities in my photographs would have to be color, tonality and dynamic range.. The things you just admitted to giving up. Oh well, to each their own..

Oh and, I find it unbelievable that you couldn't find quality Pentax glass in YOUR shooting range.. Uh, yeah right.
01-04-2008, 02:50 PM   #18
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Don't worry Switters, I'll be enjoying your 77mm lens for you next Monday when it gets here. Boy it's a long ways from California to Florida. I shipped a 70 the exact opposite direction that only took half as far, but there must be a time warp for UPS to go through coming back this way.

Having owned a 5d in the past, I can say it's a wonderful camera, but I never felt it was a complete solution and honestly was never satisfied with it. My best lenses on it were probably the 35 f1.4L and a 300 f4L, both of which are outstanding, but with a 5d and a handful of canon L glass, you are going to be toting around 25 or 30 pounds on your back before you know it.

I sold the 5d and eventually worked my way through Nikon and ended up at the K10d for the same reasons that many have stopped here. The colors just seem to be outstanding, the lens selection is nice, and the over all package for the dollar was right. As much as I loved the 5d, I'm just happier with what I can get for the money with the Pentax at the moment.

Either way, you are looking at high end gear, but the thing keeping me from looking back at those brands at the moment are costs of bodies and size of comparable glass.
01-04-2008, 03:15 PM   #19
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Well I have sold my K10D after having two of them and they were all over the place with FF and BF so after being frustrated for almost a year, out the door they went. I still am using my DS until I see what the new camera from Pentax has to offer, since I loved almost everything about the K10D, but the focus issue was a read deal breaker. Both my friends would marvel at how both my K10D and DS would save the highlights, while both of there camreas would blow them out a good protion of the time. One more thing, the focus speed on moving objects on both my Pentax DSLR's was pathetic compared to my friends with a D200 and a 5D, which I find strange, since both my MZ-S and PZ-1P are at least twice as fast as my K10D was-what the heck!

I have used the 5D quite a bit and if you don't have some extremely nice glass the edges of your images will not be sharp, in fact they will be very soft compared to what you are use to with a APS-C sensor. It is also a dust magnet and somehow seems to always have some dust on the sensor no matter how careful I was with it.

Anyway, enjoy the Canon, while I wait for the new offering from Pentax and then I will see what I will do with my collection of FA* and A* glass, which seems to still be bringing a premimum price on ebay.

Tom

01-04-2008, 04:23 PM   #20
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As an aside, have you tried using any of the m42's with canon adaptors? (do they have one?) I would be interested in your opinion of how the tones come out on a canon sensor with Pentax glass. Maybe all your missing is that good old SMC coating heh.
01-04-2008, 05:39 PM   #21
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Always interesting to me to see how heated up some people can get talking about cameras. Yes, I realize we're talking a bit about Canon in a Pentax forum. Seems to me it makes sense to consider the options when you're making a purchase - or even after you've made one, if you're not completely happy with it. I said from the start that I had mixed feelings about selling the K10D, and mixed feelings about buying the 5D... and yeah, I still do.

The "Canon makes big, heavy lenses" issue isn't really a problem for me. I'm a "less is more" kinda guy when it comes to lenses, and don't really want to own more than 3 primes and maybe one zoom. I've settled on a 35/2, 85/1.8 & 135/2. The 35 & 85 are quite light and compact, and the 135 has some size to it but it's no bigger than the Pentax 50-135/2.8.

The main issue continues to be the trade-off between the AF speed, bright VF, low noise and narrow DOF of the 5D, and the more pleasing colors and tonality of the K10D. If that was an easy choice for me, I wouldn't be posting here. Yes, I know it's easy for others - and I'm glad. Like Gary, when I shot landscapes and travel I didn't care about AF speed. With kids in the picture my needs have changed.

I did find a store locally that rents S5s. Not cheap, but probably worth it since I've been wondering about that camera for a long time now.

I will also be calibrating my 5D again tonight in tungsten light with a GTMB ColorChecker to see if that helps. The results I get in daylight with skin are much better.

While doing some research I came across a "DSLR shootout" performed by Shoot Smarter.com that tested skin tones of 8 popular cameras (K10D wasn't included). The winner? 5D. The S5 was second. Interesting.

I'm as curious as anyone to see what happens on 1/24.
01-04-2008, 08:07 PM   #22
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What are your children doing that is so fast the K10D AF can't keep up with them? My son plays hockey and I just shot two games of his tourny last weekend almost 700 shoots and only about three did the camera have a problem with the other dozen or so were my fault. The bigest complaint I have is not having fast enough glass (f2.8 or better) right now but the Af was on time with my K10D and Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 up and down the ice. In my line of work I'm pickey about my tools as well but just because it has a bigger name and cost more does not mean you get a better product, and you are also compairing apples to oranges here the K10D was not ment to compete with the 5D nore the D200, It's quality of build and images had reviewers place it in a higher class because when it was placed against cameras with simular specs in the same price range it blew them away. Remember a good craftsman never blames his tools.
01-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #23
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Switters! Gary!

Switters! Gary! Welcome back.

Nice of you both to drop by & let us know how you are doing with your new cameras.

All the best for 2008. May all your images be sharp, warm & straight of horizon.

01-04-2008, 10:09 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
But I dont get the DOF thing. In a studio I seldom shoot portraits at less than F5.6 and only when using wideangle lenses for full length shots. The lack of DOF on a closeup makes it look wierd. I dont know any pros that use extreme wide apertures either, unless there is a background thats very distracting or for special effects. Even then I would tend to use a tele lens to get the DOF.
I think it's a sort of modern camera fetish point, since shallow DOF comes relatively easily on a dSLR-sized sensor (full frame or not) and is almost impossible to achieve on a point and shoot. Therefore, images with shallow DOF prove that you've spent a lot of money on equipment.


PS, and off topic: PowerPC/RISC failed to beat the pants off of x86 not just because of marketing but also because the x86 chips actually use a basically RISC core with a "translator" on top. This translation layer then can do all sorts of optimization tricks with the machine code it's fed -- even if that code comes from an old or poor compiler or even from a poor programmer. With RISC, the weight is more heavily on the compiler/programmer. This ends up taking what is in theory an advantage (software improvements outpace hardware) and turning it on its head in the real world.

This may end up having some metaphoric relevance to this discussion.

But probably not.
01-04-2008, 10:54 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
PS, and off topic: PowerPC/RISC failed to beat the pants off of x86 not just because of marketing but also because the x86 chips actually use a basically RISC core with a "translator" on top. This translation layer then can do all sorts of optimization tricks with the machine code it's fed -- even if that code comes from an old or poor compiler or even from a poor programmer. With RISC, the weight is more heavily on the compiler/programmer. This ends up taking what is in theory an advantage (software improvements outpace hardware) and turning it on its head in the real world.

This may end up having some metaphoric relevance to this discussion.

But probably not.
I had the pleasure of spending a couple hours on a plane one time over a decade ago sitting next to one of the senior chip designers for TI and he explained a lot of this to me in terms that, at the time, I thought I could understand. I do remember very distinctly, both from his explanation, and from many other sources including articles in Byte and elsewhere, that in theory, the PowerPC chip had advantages that the x86 chips could not hope to match. Certainly Apple claimed this was the case. Of course, the story ended quite differently -- for whatever reason.

I brought it up because I think it does have some value to the discussion, not as a metaphor, but as an analogy. And whether the analogy is good or not, my point -- to get back on topic, to some degree -- is that I suspect that cameras with smaller sensors will continue to be used in DSLRs but that each year, performance at higher ISOs will get better and better. I say this for very selfish reasons: I'm trying to talk myself OUT of the idea that I am very soon going to "need" a full-frame camera.

Remember, the goal for nearly all of us isn't what's best or what's ideal, but simply what's good enough, as part of a compromise package that also involves camera size, price, and other factors. Me, I'm eager to see what Pentax offers later this month. I gather it won't be a full-frame camera -- but I bet it will be pretty good nonetheless.
Will
01-05-2008, 08:16 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by sluggo913 Quote
What are your children doing that is so fast the K10D AF can't keep up with them? My son plays hockey and I just shot two games of his tourny last weekend almost 700 shoots and only about three did the camera have a problem with the other dozen or so were my fault. The bigest complaint I have is not having fast enough glass (f2.8 or better) right now but the Af was on time with my K10D and Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 up and down the ice. In my line of work I'm pickey about my tools as well but just because it has a bigger name and cost more does not mean you get a better product, and you are also compairing apples to oranges here the K10D was not ment to compete with the 5D nore the D200, It's quality of build and images had reviewers place it in a higher class because when it was placed against cameras with simular specs in the same price range it blew them away. Remember a good craftsman never blames his tools.
I chose Pentax in the first place because I love shooting with fast primes. That's just the style I prefer - I'm not saying there's anything wrong with zooms.

So, naturally I chose the FA43 & FA77. Have you tried AF with these lenses? They're incredibly slow. I'm glad your Sigma zoom focuses quickly, but these lenses don't.

Then I tried to find other fast primes that focus quickly in the focal range I was interested in. The fastest in the 35-50 range is the 40/2.8, but f/2.8 is too slow for my needs. But there was even more of a problem in the 70-135 range. The only "relatively" fast focusing prime is the DA70, and that was still pretty slow on my K10D compared to other brands I've used. Also, again f/2.4 isn't really that fast in terms of aperture for a lens of that focal length, especially if you appreciate narrow DOF and buttery bokeh for portraits like I do.

As I've said numerous times in the thread, I'm neither bashing Pentax nor promoting Canon. I'm not "brand loyal" in the way you seem to be. And because I was choosing between the K10D I owned and a 5D, it makes perfect sense to me to compare them. I'm not writing a professional review, I'm trying to find the right camera for me. Cost is one consideration, but not the only one.

Finally, a good craftsman is also judicious about the tools he/she chooses. That's what we're talking doing here.
01-05-2008, 10:08 AM   #27
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K10D Versus EOS 5D - Again??

QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
I recently sold my K10D and got an incredible deal on a new 5D (snip) If only I could design my own camera. I know exactly what I want/need, and what I don't care about. (snip) I'd be happy (snip) Anyhow, this isn't a troll or a "Go Canon" post (snip) I'd just really like to find a camera that meets my needs and be done with it.

So, if this isn't a troll and it's all about you (your needs, wants, etc), what are we supposed to gain from you posting it here? The Canon EOS 5D ($2200) is selling for roughly $1500 more than the Pentax K10D ($700). With that in mind, I suppose K10D users might derive some satisfaction from the many comparisions to much more expensive cameras.

Any camera should obviously perform better then one costing much less. However, in my opinion, the EOS 5D does not perform all that much better than the K10D to warrant the huge price difference. Two additional megapixels, marginally faster focusing, and debatable high ISO performace would certainly not tempt me to spend an additional $1500.

Instead, I feel the K10D offers about ninety percent of the features, capabilities, and performance of the EOS 5D at roughly a third of the price. That, in my book, makes the K10D a terrific deal and the EOS 5D simply overpriced.

stewart
01-05-2008, 10:32 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
So, if this isn't a troll and it's all about you (your needs, wants, etc), what are we supposed to gain from you posting it here? The Canon EOS 5D ($2200) is selling for roughly $1500 more than the Pentax K10D ($700). With that in mind, I suppose K10D users might derive some satisfaction from the many comparisions to much more expensive cameras.

Any camera should obviously perform better then one costing much less. However, in my opinion, the EOS 5D does not perform all that much better than the K10D to warrant the huge price difference. Two additional megapixels, marginally faster focusing, and debatable high ISO performace would certainly not tempt me to spend an additional $1500.

Instead, I feel the K10D offers about ninety percent of the features, capabilities, and performance of the EOS 5D at roughly a third of the price. That, in my book, makes the K10D a terrific deal and the EOS 5D simply overpriced.

stewart
Several other people in this very thread have expressed similar likes & dislikes of the K10D, and similar curiosities about other cameras including the 5D. Those people have found it helpful to hear from someone who has tried the 5D & K10D, since they are considering or have considered making the switch.

I'm glad you're very clear on where you stand. Others, including myself, aren't so clear. I don't agree with your comments about the 5D, but then, I don't have to. It takes a lot of people to make up a world and I have absolutely no interest in convincing anyone of anything here. And as I said, I got my 5D for $1300 so it wasn't 4x the price of a K10D.

If I was a Canon/5D fanboy, would I be here saying that I miss the colors and tonality of the K10D? I've enjoyed the participation on this forum (well, for the most part) and I find this as good a place as any to ask questions/ruminate on my dilemma between Pentax and Canon.

What else are these forums for? Is there no room for anyone who has an opinion/experience that is different from yours? Is there a rule that no other cameras aside from Pentax can be discussed here? Did I miss something?
01-05-2008, 10:46 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
So, if this isn't a troll and it's all about you (your needs, wants, etc), what are we supposed to gain from you posting it here?

Stewart,

You have an awful lot of good knowledge, but you often seem to have gotten out of bed on the wrong side. Don't take these things so personally! You're not obliged to read these posts or respond to them. And I can't imagine that you truly think every new thread here is supposed to benefit you. My sense is that the original poster posted in good faith, and I have stated already that I personally find his experience very helpful and I'm grateful for the post. It's very difficult to get candid user comparisons of different cameras and I find such a comparison valuable, in good part because it makes me feel better about sticking with my K10D.

I understand that some folks protect themselves from product envy by becoming chauvinists about their own choices. As an Apple Mac user for twenty years, I'm very well acquainted with the phenomenon. I had a friend (a pro photographer as it happens) who actually said and believed that he could not be friends with anybody who used a Windows computer. He was a wonderful guy, but that particular opinion made me feel sorry for him.

Me, I've never thought hardware was that important. I could be perfectly happy with a Nikon, or a Canon, or almost anything else. I bought Pentax largely because, well, one has to buy something, and I could not afford the Nikon and Canon models that I found attractive. Money matters and you're right, the K10D is a fantastic deal. So says Sean Reid in his terrific review of the K10D (December 5, 2007 -- subscribers only), in which he spends a good bit of time comparing it (pretty favorably) to much more expensive cameras. But money isn't everything. The fact that the K10D offers 90% of what camera X offers, at one-third the price, doesn't mean someone is crazy to buy camera X. For some people that last 10% may be critically important. Sean Reid ends his review by mentioning that his wife (who is a pro wedding photographer and who has been shooting with a Canon 5D) has been considering switching platforms and was very strongly leaning toward the K10D. In the end, though, she decided against it because of the weakness in the flash system. I think that's perfectly reasonable.

Anyway, thanks again to switters for the post.

Will
01-05-2008, 11:40 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
So, if this isn't a troll and it's all about you (your needs, wants, etc), what are we supposed to gain from you posting it here?
The point of the discussion is to share real world user experience with different equipment, so that people may select the best tools to get the job done. Many people stick with just one brand of SLR equipment, since the components are not cross-brand compatible. It is difficult to know how equipment will perform simply from reading reviews or a quick test of a camera in a store. Using the equipment for months doing your own photography is the only way to really know how it performs.

When I was unhappy with some aspects of my Pentax system performance, I started a thread asking for people's real world experience with other brands. I found it helpful to read comments from people who have actually used different system in similar situations. Now that I have used both Pentax and Nikon gear, I would like to return the favor for those who might find the information useful. The O.P. (Switters) was unhappy with the Pentax AF performance (as I was), but was also unhappy with the Canon color quality. I thought it might be helpful to share my experience with Nikon since he was asking about alternatives.

I am glad you are happy with your Pentax K10D. It is a fine camera and works well for many applications. But it is not the best choice for everyone, and I think an honest discussion of the pros and cons of other brands is an appropriate topic for this forum. One of the great things about the Internet is the ability for ordinary people to share information that otherwise would not be available. In the old days, you were limited to reading manufacturer's advertising, product reviews in a couple of magazines, chatting with sales people in a store, and perhaps chatting with a few dozen people in a camera club. But with Internet forums such as this one, you can ask thousands of people across the planet to share their experiences with a particular product. It gives consumers the ability to get more information and make better choices. I think that is a good thing.
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