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03-26-2012, 08:23 AM   #31
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It'll never happen but what the hell

lets make some really rash assumptions here.

First of all AF performance has nothing to do with format so the AF expectations are completely irrelevent.

Second, considering the performance of the K5D for High ISO, there are two possibilities

either the same number of pixels, (i.e. 16MP) with absolutely insane noise control and iso capabilites down to 25ISO, or a sensor with the same or pixle density of the K5, but full frame, i.e. a roughly 30MP full frame camera or perhaps an equitible trade in the middle at perhaps 25MP

in body SR with perhaps better stabilization including some compensation for pitch and yaw as well as vertical lateral and rotation (i.e. "5 axis")

better flash control and a 1/8000 shutter with 1/250 sync (like the PZ-1)

for me, I really rather would prefer to see more lenses, because the full frame is a drain on resources that will make pentax pay dearly for the biggest market share, the consumer and serious amature, for an attempt to get into the saturated pro market

03-26-2012, 09:21 AM   #32
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I do like roughly k-5 sized $1800 option even packed with 16-18Mp sensor (though 24+ would be better) but I _feel_ it will be something with interchangeable optical/electronic/no viewfinders (maybe some other accessories/parts) if K-01, GXR and LX are taken as a hint.
03-26-2012, 09:39 AM   #33
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Well, I'll never buy one. I don't need one. I'm not good enough to use one. I can shoot film. But . . . Let's think about what Pentax might actually do.


Historical Asahi Pentax brand identifiers:
  • Optics
    • intellectually rational but unusual FL (31, 43, 77)
    • occasional cult-level outstanding design
    • build quality (not just Limiteds)
    • Price / Value
  • Bodies
    • High-End enthusiast features, typically not at cutting-edge of performance
    • Build quality
    • Ergonomics
    • Typically small
    • Visually appealing (except 80's)
    • From time to time intellectually exciting innovations
    • Price / Value
    • LX
Assuming Pentax can get access to at least a competitive sensor, perhaps not the newest, and can wring more out of it than their competition, let's accept VERY competitive IQ from a Pentax FF, relative to competitors' 2nd-best model (645D beats the best model).


In order of importance for a $2,899 camera:
  1. Optics
  2. Optics
  3. Credible Optics Roadmap
  4. Peripheral improvements - intellectual recognition that PP is time consuming; card bus, tethering, innovative file exporting improvements to make a pro more productive, etc.
  5. Credible Service Model
  6. Credible dealer support (hands-on B&M distribution and sales - they help sell it)
  7. Ergonomic Design that feels right in the hand; neither small nor large, necessarily; intellectualy rational control layout; works like it was designed by a photographer, not an engineer
  8. Best build quality (related to 7)
  9. Cutting-edge imaging engine from the referenced sensor = IQ
  10. AF accuracy w/ reasonable speed emphasizing hit rate (see 1, 2, 3)
  11. Viewfinder - BEST viewfinder available at introduction (perhaps interchangeable); OLED LCD
  12. Flash System - good as Nikon
  13. Flash Sync - at least competitive (1/8000)
  14. FPS - Meh.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-26-2012 at 09:57 AM.
03-26-2012, 10:11 AM   #34
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ok but again, if the real issue is in order of priority

1) optics
2) optics
3) optical roadmap

when you consider those who really can make use of / take advantage of full frame, the only possible option for a small company like pentax is to make one lens line up, all full frame, and make the majority of the users subsidize the lens cost for the few.

as i said, it'll never happen

03-26-2012, 10:12 AM   #35
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OK, I'll bite... nothing.. I don't need or want 36 mp. Nor do I need to spend $3000 on a camera body that I have to buy more expensive (but often second hand) lenses for.
03-26-2012, 10:59 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
ok but again, if the real issue is in order of priority

1) optics
2) optics
3) optical roadmap

when you consider those who really can make use of / take advantage of full frame, the only possible option for a small company like pentax is to make one lens line up, all full frame, and make the majority of the users subsidize the lens cost for the few.

as i said, it'll never happen
Exactly my point. Lenses come first, so obsessing about an impossible camera is a waste of time.

Unless Ricoh intends to subsidize Pentax for a long time and turn it into a not-so-small company.
03-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #37
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Interesting.

Basically, it seems most folks who've commented just want a FF and can live with likely lags in capability (eg. AF speed)
None of the "FF at that price and capability, I'll just get a D800" type of rationale.
I see hope for a Pentax FF if it comes out.


The proposition of a APS-C K? that nears FF capability in sensor performance is interesting too. I just don't know if that can be the case, given the documented performance of the 24mp NEX7 and A77 of nice low ISO but poorer high ISO performance.
It would take quite a large improvement in AF speed/accuracy to convince me to buy a K?. I just don't see the point getting one over the K5 if everything stayed the same expect for a higher MP sensor (ie. 16mp to 24mp)
I don't know what more to add on to the K5 in fact. Most would be wants more than needs like max flash sync speed; better PTTL.
03-26-2012, 04:23 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I think that you all don't realize how many owners of a D800 by the time of X-mass are complaining about the huge files the sh*it camera is bringing home
LOL. And how big do you think the 645D's RAW files are for those folks who want a cheaper 645D?

I think the hard part for Pentax is differentiating a FF now that Canikon (and even Sony) have pretty much thrown the kitchen sink into their lineup. Weathersealing and great build quality were Pentax's unique features when the K10D came out (along w/ K lens compatibility when used K lenses were plentiful). At the D800/5D level, it's *very* hard to compete w/ yet another FF body (Sony found that out despite trying to undercut them in price w/ their own sensors). You can't shrink the body much more. Nikon has virtual horizons and HDR now. Sony has in-body IS. They all arguably have better AF and flash systems (though Sony's proprietary hotshoe gets a big -1 in the design awards).

If you had that much money to blow on the D800, it's arguably a lifetime camera...can't think of anything to add to it, even for HDSLR video (maybe higher FPS for slow motion, but that's about it). High ISO is slightly better than the D700 which is great already...you can downsample like crazy to get better effective ISO, and it has natural color rendition according to reviews. It'd probably cost you around $10K+ to upgrade...$3.2K body, $2.4K 70-200, $1.8K 24-70, $1.5K 85/1.4, $2K 14-24, $2K 24TS for a nice set of lenses. All the lenses are big/heavy, but damned ridiculously sharp (not just in the center like Pentax's FF lens lineup which was designed for film) if you're willing to haul them around
You can say almost the same thing w/ the 5DmkIII now that they've fixed their utter crap AF system and tweaked video (though the D800's seems better)...they've redone their lens lineups and weakened the AA filter for more sharpness.

So unless you have a big collection of K lenses (and you have the money to consider the D800), the question to ask is "What unique thing besides price can Pentax do to make you buy their FF body?". Add that to the lower number of Pentax users and it'd be expensive for Pentax to design/sell/support a FF body, so trying to compete on price alone would be a dangerous thing to do at this point (can you say loss leader?) where the sweet spot is still APS-C bodies...

03-26-2012, 04:49 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Does anyone think a GXR-FF mountor is more likely than a K-FF camera?
I think if a FF GXR mountor comes out it will be the replacement for the M mountor using the same sensor (and sensor commitment ) that the Pentax FF uses)
Given it could be priced at $2-2500 and leicaphiles would line up for the deal of the century in their world

It would also diversify the commitment and help move enough sensors to meet the qty required for a decent price structure
03-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
What do we expect for :
Price?
AF expectation?
SR?
ISO?
Features?
I think expectations are so low that Pentax can sell to the current user base any FF camera they manage to build.

Expectations will just be for it to have a price, AF, SR, ISO settings, and some features.
03-26-2012, 07:03 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK, I'll bite... nothing.. I don't need or want 36 mp. Nor do I need to spend $3000 on a camera body that I have to buy more expensive (but often second hand) lenses for.
+1, I'd be happy with continued improvement for APS-C.
03-26-2012, 08:18 PM   #42
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FF or no FF I can stay with Pentax... After a year or so of having the K-x I don't think I'll be needing an 35mm digital. A better 645D is what I would like to see. And with how I see the K-5, it can still go on for another year or so of production with good sales... as long as the price remains at $999 to 1199$

But if there's anything I can suggest Pentax can do for a 35mm digital, it would be somewhere like the LX, like monochrome and the others suggest. A system camera with custom parts. It may sound like some sort of Lego camera with that kind of system but it would be surely unique.

How I like to envision (err...fantasize, no engineering knowledge here so I think a lot of these are impossible) it:

Body base: FF sensor/mount + controls, and SR

Customizable parts (required):
Grip -- A) right hand grip B) grip with built-in vertical grip
Viewfinder -- A) Eye level B) Waist-level C) other kinds
LCD -- A) Fixed B) Articulated
Optional parts mount -- (dunno how to put this really) for GPS, extra video control, whatever. I just want the hotshoe still free for use with flash/other lighting stuff lol
Focus Screen, etc

No idea how pricing would go for this kind of system though =)) and I hope they make that model good enough for the next 5-8 years. But given the pace of technology today, I guess that won't happen.
03-26-2012, 11:00 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
How I like to envision (err...fantasize, no engineering knowledge here so I think a lot of these are impossible) it:

Body base: FF sensor/mount + controls, and SR

Customizable parts (required):
Grip -- A) right hand grip B) grip with built-in vertical grip
Viewfinder -- A) Eye level B) Waist-level C) other kinds
LCD -- A) Fixed B) Articulated
Optional parts mount -- (dunno how to put this really) for GPS, extra video control, whatever. I just want the hotshoe still free for use with flash/other lighting stuff lol
Focus Screen, etc
I'll guess that Pentax-Ricoh isn't going to produce yet another platform, not on this scale, not when there are already Q and K MILCs, APS-C and MF dSLRs, and the GXR (which looks pretty promising to me). Modularity could happen on the GXR platform. I don't know if the current GXR could support a MF mountor, but I'll guess it could, or a GXR2 would.

Problem with the LX-type system of your wet dreams comes from having the sensor integrated with the body/controls. When a new sensor appears, it would need a new body. That rather limits modularity. A GXR or GXR2 could support various mountors compatible with Q, M, K, MF, whatever, as well as the attachments you mentioned. Probably no teledildonics though, but who knows? Anyway, those mountors should cost much less to develop and build than sensor-integrated camera bodies. We could buy more of them! Fun fun fun.

Last edited by RioRico; 03-27-2012 at 09:05 AM.
03-26-2012, 11:36 PM   #44
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Yes, I reckon we'll definitely see a FF GXR module for K-Mount before a Pentax FF camera.
03-27-2012, 01:06 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
To answer the original question I want my Pentax full frame camera to:
  • Take my K mount lenses
  • Have a 100% pentaprism VF
  • Be weather sealed
  • Have in-camera SR
  • Have super clean low ISO performance
  • Have accurate AF (fast wouldn't hurt my feelings either)
  • Be durable and reliable
That is all. Simple.

Stuff I could care less about:
  • Cost, so long as it's under $4k US
  • Video
  • High ISO (above 3200)
  • Frame rate
  • Compactness
  • Video
  • High ISO
  • Bells and whistles
  • Goofy colors
  • Compactness
  • Video
  • And having a big-name designer
There is one thing that the D800 can't do and that's mount K-mount glass. That's really the only advantage Pentax has left in my book, but it is rather important to me. That's what is keeping me with the brand.

Exactly!

What's keeping me with Pentax is the excellent K-mount glass and the backwards compatibility.

Personally, I would rather have them bring out more or even better lenses instead of a FF camera. But I do recognize that Pentax, as a brand, NEEDS FF bodies in their lineup. Not one, but multiple. Low end and high end. Upgrade path=OK, but if the steps are too big, then there still isn't a real upgrade path. If they can get the price of the low-end below that of the competition, below the price of the D700 even, then they'll already have a winner. If that means sacrificing features, so be it. If it means mirrorless (yuck) so be it. They can't win in the higher segment right now, but they can in that lower segment.
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