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07-26-2012, 03:47 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
what if you don't want to go super wide?
what if you like the extra reach that APS-C gives you?
what if you still want the brighter/bigger VF?
what if your happy with the DoF you can get from APS-C?
What if you can afford a FF?

what then?
Stick with APS-C, which Pentax are happy to support!
My own interest in FF (tentative, not in a financial position to consider a new body APS-C OR FF yet) would be for better high ISO performance. The K5 is pretty good (such an improvement on the K20D) but there is one area of my photgraphy that basically involves shooting moving objects in very low light, and in mixed lighting envrionments- gas light, tungsten, flourescent, moonlight, coal fire "glow" I am learning how to get the best out of the K5 att he moment, but could see a FF giving me extra here. Also I am a wide-standard type of guy, so the AoV of 24, 38 and 35mm focul lengths appeals to me more on FF sensor.


Last edited by StephenHampshire; 07-26-2012 at 03:50 AM. Reason: incomplete post
07-26-2012, 04:46 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
what if you don't want to go super wide?
what if you like the extra reach that APS-C gives you?
what if you still want the brighter/bigger VF?
what if your happy with the DoF you can get from APS-C?
What if you can afford a FF?

what then?
by an apsc then, or buy a d800 and crop it down to the best apsc level of the K5

As time passes that 36mp sensor will become the entry FF sensor I'd bet

maybe in the next generation after this
07-26-2012, 05:15 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
by an apsc then, or buy a d800 and crop it down to the best apsc level of the K5

As time passes that 36mp sensor will become the entry FF sensor I'd bet

maybe in the next generation after this
I still find it interesting that Nikon is still using a 16.2 mp sensor in their high end D4.
07-26-2012, 05:18 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Yes but that lens (28/1.8) is not great on a D7000 so why expect any more on a D800? Check out the Flickr samples and the DX & FX reviews on Photozone.

Also: The 24/1.4 is supposed to be 'soft' in the corners on a D800, unlike my Zeiss 21/2.8, which is sharp right up to the front element @ 2.8.
I agree, but this starts to become out of context now.

The original comment I reacted to was about that an APSC! 23mm/1.2 is infeasible or ridiculously expensive. While that was done (more or less) already, and for full frame even.

I do generally agree though that many lenses can't be made in equivalent form for APSC. Which is why I said that choosing this particular example is a bit ironic.

The Zeiss 21mm/2.8 OTOH is a league in its own. Nothing compares so it isn't even necessary to search for an APSC 14mm/1.8


Last edited by falconeye; 07-26-2012 at 05:28 AM.
07-26-2012, 10:25 AM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
1809 vs. 1139 which is a factor 1.59. That's in the middle between 1 and 2, nowhere near 2, for a faster lens ...

And then there is the Nikon 28mm f/1.8G at 719, 0.63x the price of the FA 31/1.8.
I guess we operate in different economical zones. The US market is not burdened by the European price inflation of Pentax lenses. At B&H photo: Pentax 31mm $989. NIkon 24mm 1.4 $1999 - a sizeable difference. As far as the 28mm 1.8 goes it is indeed a cheaper option, which it can be by not offering the unique build characteristics of the Limited series lenses.
07-26-2012, 10:43 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I still find it interesting that Nikon is still using a 16.2 mp sensor in their high end D4.
Right, and the sensor in the new 1DX has less MP than the 5DIII. Telling that the pro cameras carry less MP and have more speed and better low light performance....

Anyways, the original 12MP 5D can be had for $800 or less, and paired with a 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 it's a great combo that will give you a large VF and thin DOF...you just can't crop like a crazyman. You could get a cheap used FF like that and a K-5 and be enjoying both worlds.

Even the 5DII can be had refurb from canon for $1450 on some of their 20% sales, granted those are not easy to get... so the budget FFs are already out there if you're willing to look!
07-26-2012, 10:46 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by sb in ak Quote
Anyways, the original 12MP 5D can be had for $800 or less, and paired with a 50mm 1.8 or 1.4...
And paired with the Pentax 50mm f1.2. Lots of Canon folks do that btw, because their 1.2 sucks.
07-26-2012, 11:17 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by sb in ak Quote
Right, and the sensor in the new 1DX has less MP than the 5DIII. Telling that the pro cameras carry less MP and have more speed and better low light performance....
!
used and refurbs aside FF is still pricey until the rumoured D600 anyway (d700 is effectively gone when gone, already sold out in my market)

the reason the top models are lower mp is they are targeting sports and reportage where it's all about speed and not high res.
D800 most definitely will be used by pro's but not for sports. wrong tool for the job.
same with 5d3
for some the right tool for the job will be an alpa with a digital back

Pro's are as likely to use a 7d/d300 as the top models or medium format.
it's the gearhead enthusiasts like us who endlessly debate it and assign values to things like the d4

07-26-2012, 03:23 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Here, these shots were taken with my iphone
that's it.. I'm selling my gear and just getting an iphone.
07-26-2012, 08:11 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I still find it interesting that Nikon is still using a 16.2 mp sensor in their high end D4.
Pros tend not to be as interested in large MPs as gearhead enthusiasts. Some pros don't believe they need that many megapixels, and don't see any advantage in trying to process and store more data than needed. Here's a short sample of what some pros think about high MP cameras:

Tony Bynum: "...even though I’ve sold files for many billboards – some up to the size of entire city blocks, huge wraps for buses, and simple 60 foot highway billboards, the D800 file’s are huge! I shoot about 100,000 frames per year – almost 10k per month, there’s no way I could store that much data – and that’s not counting video."

Thom Hogan: "Personally, I use my 24mp D3x much less than I thought I would, and my 12mp D3s more than I thought I would. Both are fine cameras, but 'more resolution' turns out to be less important to me than other factors at the pixel level, and to some degree, most pros seem to voice the same thoughts."

Scott Bourne: "[To camera companies:] Stop the megapixel madness. In the old days your marketing departments were able to convince camera buyers that bigger was better. Then you wised up and saw that wasn’t working and you went to video. You added video to cameras and that was your hook. Then you got lazy and said 'well let’s go back to megapixel madness again – there are a bunch of newbies who won’t realize we’ve already used this trick!'

"12-14 megapixels is plenty of resolution for MOST shooters, especially with the compact camera sensors. 18 should be the top end for all but 98% of the shooters out there. Stop pretending that you’re doing us a favor by doubling the pixel count on the same old sensor. You’re not."
07-26-2012, 08:34 PM   #206
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I imagine that noise lowers resolution faster than a low pixel count once the ISO starts going up. Unless I shoot under 800 I'm seeing quite a bit of noise at times and it would be interesting to read some info on what the effective resolution turns out to be at higher ISO's on dense sensors.. Being an aforesaid 'newbie' I was sucked in by the MP on the D800E (I don't regret that) but I really would have also liked a cheaper 16MP FF option at an affordable price.
07-27-2012, 06:23 PM   #207
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APS-C gives no extra reach but FF gives more latitude. The Mp war has lost its importance nowadays and we're looking to get the most of our already excellent lenses. That said, Pentax wouldn't be wise to stick with 16Mp as its FF sensor. 24Mp makes more sense and Sony already have this one ready to go. Along with seeking to produce the smallest, lightest FF camera around, these features will be enough to market a useful and competitive product.
07-27-2012, 07:14 PM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
APS-C gives no extra reach but FF gives more latitude. The Mp war has lost its importance nowadays and we're looking to get the most of our already excellent lenses. That said, Pentax wouldn't be wise to stick with 16Mp as its FF sensor. 24Mp makes more sense and Sony already have this one ready to go. Along with seeking to produce the smallest, lightest FF camera around, these features will be enough to market a useful and competitive product.
I agree with most of this, but there are tests online with the Canon 7D vs. 5DII and 5DIII of shots of dollar bills. The 7D crops of the bills are definitely clearer. So on the Canon side, the 7D (and other 18MP cameras...heck even the low cost Rebels) is still the king for distance wildlife photos (also considering it trumps the 5DII in AF and the other option is to pay $3k for the 5DIII). Maybe not true on the Nikon side anymore with the D800, but again, you have to shell out $3k for that camera, where you'd be better off spending that money on lenses and going for the D7000 for long distance stuff IMO.
07-28-2012, 08:09 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by sb in ak Quote
So on the Canon side, the 7D (and other 18MP cameras...heck even the low cost Rebels) is still the king for distance wildlife photos
Great images in a distance are much more a question of overall camera performance (AF, stabilization, lens resolution and yes, also pixel pitch). But pixel pitch isn't the most important factor.

And all factors combined, APS-C simply doesn't compete anymore. I explained why in my blog.

Here, I will just attach a freehand snapshot from yesterday, taken with a full frame camera (200 mm lens), image cropped to the field of view of a 3,000 mm lens (2,000 mm with APSC). Such quality became the norm for me with a full frame camera but I would consider it be exceptional for an APSC camera.
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