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06-30-2012, 05:34 AM   #121
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I'd have a lot more than $15,000 before I'd add a 645 D to my collection...but hey, if I win a million or two, I'll build a dedicated humidity controlled camera storage room and fill it with everything that strikes my fancy. The 645 can be one of those.

07-01-2012, 08:32 PM   #122
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I very much like the size and weight and nice large handle of my K20D, make size and appearance your primary consideration in camera design and when you are changing options in a hurry during a shoot you end up with this:

The Canon 5D is so close in size you'd have to see them side by side to see a difference, FF doesn't mean too big, a 100% viewfinder and larger LCD with room leftover for both buttons and a place to actually hold the camera are nifty things to have.

Perhaps you would like a nice Pentax Q instead.

If we are really lucky perhaps the mods will start locking all the threads that even mention a FF until one actually comes out. This has been reduced to people who would like a FF and people who don't have any use for one bickering.

The only proper answer to what is necessary or which is better is : "for what?" anything else is technical opinion.

When it comes down to it ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is "necessary" as this quite entertainingly proves:
But there's a great many things that are really freaking helpful, whether YOU need them or not is your deal.

Last edited by PPPPPP42; 07-01-2012 at 08:38 PM.
07-02-2012, 07:12 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by PPPPPP42 Quote
The Canon 5D is so close in size you'd have to see them side by side to see a difference, FF doesn't mean too big, a 100% viewfinder and larger LCD with room leftover for both buttons and a place to actually hold the camera are nifty things to have..

The 5D is between the K-5 and the 645D in size. Also the lenses are 50% longer for the same angle of view. Not to mention the price disadvantages both for the camera and comparable lenses...
07-02-2012, 02:31 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
I see all these threads about full frame (or lack thereof) and have wondered why does everyone want one so badly?
Would you like a 26mm f/1.8 limited that weighs 90 grams and has ~1.5x better resolution than your K-5 with a 31mm f/1.8?

That would be a $1200-2000 lens on a APS-C. Actually it'd be basically impossible to get 1.5x resolution, and do it at 90 grams, but let's say it's possible. It'd definitely be better performing (resolution only) than any consumer grade glass, Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, Pentax, whatever.

It's ~$350 on FF.

07-02-2012, 04:14 PM   #125
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Talk of maths and schematics of lenses, and talk of DoF and AoV have little to do with actual pictures, I'm sorry, when I look at a picture I either like or not, don't care what format it was taken with, and don't get out my ruler, protractor and calculator to make asumptions about it and work out IF I like it.

Please get over this FF v APS-C arguement. Anyone can take a good photo on any format, regardless, if you have to "rely" on the tech to make a good image it says something.
07-02-2012, 04:55 PM   #126
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Each format has it's advantages. The APS-C format has the advantage of getting more DOF at faster shutter speeds and lower ISO values etc... FF can use cheaper longer lenses at smaller F-Stops to get what APS-C cameras get from faster shorter focal lengths but then the FF user has the problem of finding 'cheaper' lenses that can cut it right out to the edge of the frame. Basically, you still need to buy expensive lenses if you want edge to edge quality.

Unfortunately the smaller the pixels and the denser the sensor the more inter-pixel 'diffraction' occurs and thus it is pushing it to expect much beyond 16MPX for APS-C without issues. A 24MP APS-C sensor is going to be soft wide open, sharp at F5.6-F8 and soft for smaller F-Stops. It'll take really good lenses to make that sensor cut it. The size of the Airy Disc being the defining spec.

The larger size of the FF sensor allows for more pixels at larger sizes and thus avoids some of the issues mentioned in the previous paragraph.

For ultimate quality 16MP is the best sensor size for FF and about 12MP for APSC.

Last edited by bossa; 07-02-2012 at 08:05 PM.
07-03-2012, 08:03 AM   #127
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LumoLabs: The true reasons for a full frame camera-- white paper

My 2 cents, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time

-> LumoLabs -- True reasons for Full Frame -- Whitepaper


(one chart from the paper, discussing regions of image quality and that there is no single or time-constant sweet spot for sensor size)
07-03-2012, 12:56 PM   #128
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Image quality sweetspot is is not the point and is anyway totally subjective. Smaller sensors are cheaper and their image quality is more than good enough for even demanding professional work something that is proven by reality. Theories that try to make formats equal maybe fun but as formats are not equal and nobody use them like they were, we can pretty much ignore it.

4/3, APS, FF and MF are all formats in their own rights. They are not equivalent; they are not good at the same things.
The most important thing for market acceptance is price where smaller formats has the advantage. 35mm(FF) was the sweetspot for film. We had smaller film formats as well but they never caught on among demanding users cause the quality was not there. This is not true for digital.
It is the increased quality compared to film that have made the vast majority of DSLR cameras smaller than 35mm. Progress in sensor technology is only going to accentuate this trend. However, the digital market is highly fragmented so that we will see lots of formats due the lack of constraints from film formats.


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-03-2012 at 01:08 PM.
07-03-2012, 04:43 PM   #129
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Google up Benjamin Kanarek, he doesn't even use full frame, he shoots with two K-5's, two K-20D's, and a K10D with a crap load of glass. Even crazier is he shoots for Vogue and Harper's Bazaar magazine with APS-C's.
07-03-2012, 05:48 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeDave Quote
a crap load of glass.
Exactly!
07-04-2012, 05:47 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeDave Quote
Google up Benjamin Kanarek, he doesn't even use full frame, he shoots with two K-5's, two K-20D's, and a K10D with a crap load of glass. Even crazier is he shoots for Vogue and Harper's Bazaar magazine with APS-C's.
Actually if I'm not mistaken he has a 5D2 as well, but his primary shooting gear is indeed Pentax (he is/was sponsored after all)
07-04-2012, 06:49 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
[...] Theories that try to make formats equal maybe fun but as formats are not equal and nobody use them like they were, we can pretty much ignore it. [...]
If resulting images are indistinguishable, the size of the recording format is irrelevant and can fully be ignored.
Then other factors like size, weight, price etc. come into play.
However, as APS-C in most cases only delivers a subset of FF-options, the latter offers more alternatives.
Even if only the price and only the APS-C realizations are concerned, an equivalent FF system soon could actually be better, i.e. cheaper (e.g. APS-C+16-50/2.8+50-135/2.8 vs. FF+24-70/4+70-200/4).
07-04-2012, 10:21 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
My 2 cents, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time

-> LumoLabs -- True reasons for Full Frame -- Whitepaper


(one chart from the paper, discussing regions of image quality and that there is no single or time-constant sweet spot for sensor size)
oh...that article is written by you........
07-04-2012, 10:32 AM   #134
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Anybody has a scientific article to offer that explains why FF sensors offer better IQ over smaller sensors like APS-C? I can't seem to grasp why that'd make sense.
07-04-2012, 10:40 AM   #135
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the lumo labs article Falk wrote (there is more than one I believe) use the link in the post above you to get it

EDIT - it's not entirely a simple concept though, but as an example if you are shooting for a certain look (DOF) that requires shooting wide open on apsc, the FF version lenses being equivalent can shoot stopped down and therefore closer to the lenses peak performance zone
FF also has a 1 stop noise advantage at the higher iso sensors being equal (so D800 versus D7000 for instance)

Falks goes into everything in depth though
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