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05-10-2012, 11:04 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Just try that with the camera and lens sticking out at the end of your arms
I always hold cameras at the end of my arms. I tried holding them with my elbows, but I can't use the buttons anymore. And my shoulders don't touch each other, so that was out of the question. You probably have been bionically augmented if you can hold your cameras otherwise.

Using a long lens with an LCD is challenging, but doable. Here is a shot I took with the Tamron 300/5.6 on E-PL2 (equivalent to a 400mm lens on a Pentax APS-C camera):



No tripod or monopod, just a good handholding position, the same way you need to do it with an SLR.

05-10-2012, 11:09 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
At least the crowds I shoot in. What do you think all the people behind me at shows would rather see? The back of my head (which they are seeing anyway), or the back of my head with my hands up holding a 3 inch LCD?
Unless your head is smaller than a MILC camera, I would prefer seeing the back of the MILC. I am not sure why you feel the need to put your head in the line of fire - the neck on which it rests should provide some tilting capability.
05-10-2012, 11:13 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
in the line of fire
Line of fire? What battle are we fighting now? The battle of the Finders!
05-11-2012, 03:19 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Now, let's change the rifle to a pistol. Horribly unstable, not big enough to grip properly and to be blunt, only an expert can hit something more than 15 meters away, much the same as a P&S camera.
Not to hijack the thread, but... Back in the day, it took me just a few weeks training to become one of those pistol experts. (Lesson #1 with the .45 ACP: Keep your thumb down if you want to keep it! But I digress.) I used to brag that I could do dental work from 50m with the .45 auto. Much easier for me than longer-range rifle marksmanship, because I've always had a hard time seeing those targets at 400m+. Anyway, pistol work just demands a different discipline than does a rifle, more control of arms and eyes and rhythm. And NO consumption of caffeine, alcohol, milk (lactic acid distorts eyeballs).

ObTopic: Both OVFs and EVFs have their place. Almost anything is better than a sportsfinder (a wire frame atop the camera).

05-11-2012, 04:30 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Not to hijack the thread, but... Back in the day, it took me just a few weeks training to become one of those pistol experts. (Lesson #1 with the .45 ACP: Keep your thumb down if you want to keep it! But I digress.) I used to brag that I could do dental work from 50m with the .45 auto. Much easier for me than longer-range rifle marksmanship, because I've always had a hard time seeing those targets at 400m+. Anyway, pistol work just demands a different discipline than does a rifle, more control of arms and eyes and rhythm. And NO consumption of caffeine, alcohol, milk (lactic acid distorts eyeballs).

ObTopic: Both OVFs and EVFs have their place. Almost anything is better than a sportsfinder (a wire frame atop the camera).
A little hammer bite never killed anyone. Love the 1911a1 though. 101 years old and still going strong. With some of the modern ammo, pushing it to 75 & 100 yards isn't too much.
05-11-2012, 11:32 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
1/10:
The fact that it is sometimes possible to get good results at slow shtter speeds even holding a camera at arm's lemgth does not change the fact that you can consistently do better holding it against your body.

QuoteQuote:
And an SLR fits better in a crowd?
Are you serious? The difference in space taken up between a DSLR and a mirrorless camera - in terms of the cameras themselves - is like an inch. The difference *in space taken up* holding a camera against your body versus at arm's length is over two feet. Yes, you need *much* more room to shoot a mirrorless camera with only an LCD as opposed to shooting a DSLR. That seems obvious to me.

QuoteQuote:
Larger than on the LCD screen?
??? Of course. The apparent size of objects in a viewfinder is *enormous* compared to on an LCD held at arm's length. You'd have to hold the LCD only inches away in order for it to approach the same level of magnification as a typical OVF.

QuoteQuote:
Focusing their eyes or their cameras?
Eyes, As I explained last time, most of us over 40 cannot focus our eyes on anything less than two feet or so away. And LCD cannot be used by us at anything less than arm's length.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 05-11-2012 at 11:39 PM.
05-12-2012, 04:52 AM   #82
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I find when I'm using the OVF, I''m not really aware of whats happening around me, in certain situations that could be dangerous.
05-12-2012, 09:49 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The fact that it is sometimes possible to get good results at slow shtter speeds even holding a camera at arm's lemgth does not change the fact that you can consistently do better holding it against your body.
The secret is not to hold the camera at arm's length, as I pointed to you before. Of course, if you plan to misuse a camera, you will consistently *not* get good results with it. All your other comments revolve around this "arms length" strawman argument.

Taking your eye focusing argument - when you review shots taken on your DSLR, do you also hold it at arms length? Even if you point it down, that would look rather ridiculous. Try it in front of a mirror.

05-12-2012, 11:19 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
The secret is not to hold the camera at arm's length, as I pointed to you before.
For many of us over 40, arm's length is our only choice if there is no viewfinder. But even forearm's length is still not as secure, and more disruptive in crowded environments, then against one's face. The most stable and least disruptive position is braced against one's face, and that's just a plain fact. Some people might be willing to sacrifice some of that for whatever they perceive themselves to be gaining by using an LCD, but I have yet to hear one advantage that makes any sense whatsoever to me. As I've said before though, a high quality EVF - now that will get my attention. It at least has the *potential* to give me the same level of stability and magnification as an OVF, but will also give me the things that would be advantages on LCD's if they weren't so tiny when viewed at the distance we 40+-year-olds have to view them from (ability to zoom in further to aid manual focus, showing additional information such as effects of WB, "focus peaking" indicators, etc).

QuoteQuote:
Taking your eye focusing argument - when you review shots taken on your DSLR, do you also hold it at arms length? Even if you point it down, that would look rather ridiculous.
I am not sure why you find it so hard to understand that many people cannot focus on close objects, but I assure it, it is a common phenomenon, to the point of being almost inevitable as you age. But indeed, I tend to not review shots in crowded environments, and when I do, I usually point the camera down. I neither know nor care whether others think it looks ridiculous.
05-13-2012, 07:37 AM   #85
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As one gets older, one's arms get progressively shorter in relation to focusing ability of your eye. Consequently, one's shooting position becomes more and more unstable. Combine that with something like an 80-200 F2.8 and there is a tendency to fall over forward onto one's face. This tends to be hard on the camera equipment and personally embarrassing. I have owned Pentax DSLRs since the iST-D and don't think that I have ever tried Live View except when the camera was on a tripod.

Guess that makes me a crusty, old, curmudgeon.....

Best Regards all,

Ed
05-13-2012, 10:32 AM   #86
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I have specific used for LiveView on different cameras:

* On the P&S's, LV can be mandatory for careful framing, and when using filters/adapters.
* On my K20D, LV is ONLY for tricky fisheye or macro shots, with the camera immobilized.

In neither case am I holding a camera a arms' length (rather long arms, in my case). For deliberative two-fisted shooting with a P&S, my elbows are braced against my torso and the LV screen is about 10in / 25cm in front of my delaminating eyeballs. (*) Essentially, I modify my braced eye-to-VF position by swinging the camera out till the LV screen is viewable, that's all. A wide sombrero suffices to shade the screen.

People will adopt whatever position feels right. Whatever.
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(*) Yes, I wear spectacles. Zeiss spectacles, comprising 2/5 of my Zeiss lens collection.
05-13-2012, 04:47 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Greeneg Quote
Combine that with something like an 80-200 F2.8 and there is a tendency to fall over forward onto one's face.
We're just going in circles here. My point was never that an LCD allows you to do all that a VF allows you to do, just that for most people, for most use scenarios, either focusing method works and it is only for corner case shooting that you really want one specific method. Use of an 80-200/2.8 falls under corner case - these are not kit lenses and half of the marketplace will not own one in their life, much less use it on regular basis.

QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
There are times when an LCD is needed.
There are times when a VF is needed.
There are times when an OVF is needed.

But most of the time (80-90%), either framing/focusing method can do the trick, unless your photography involves corner case scenarios most of the time.
05-13-2012, 05:20 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
For many of us over 40, arm's length is our only choice if there is no viewfinder.
You are talking about presbyopia, but that is a process that peaks at 60, not at 40. Look around at how many people hold their cell phones at arms length to read their messages - if the situation would be as you describe it, everyone would walk around with their arms stretched.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The most stable and least disruptive position is braced against one's face, and that's just a plain fact.
No, everyone know that the most stable position is on a tripod.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
But indeed, I tend to not review shots in crowded environments, and when I do, I usually point the camera down.
Down at crotch level or down at chest level was the question I asked.
05-13-2012, 08:11 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Down at crotch level or down at chest level was the question I asked.
Okay, so now we are hitting below the belt!
05-13-2012, 09:06 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I always hold cameras at the end of my arms. I tried holding them with my elbows, but I can't use the buttons anymore. And my shoulders don't touch each other, so that was out of the question. You probably have been bionically augmented if you can hold your cameras otherwise.

Using a long lens with an LCD is challenging, but doable. Here is a shot I took with the Tamron 300/5.6 on E-PL2 (equivalent to a 400mm lens on a Pentax APS-C camera):



No tripod or monopod, just a good handholding position, the same way you need to do it with an SLR.
Sweet pic! I snapped a pic with the M 200mm f4.0 of the same type of bird but it came out out of focus. Do you happen to know the name of this type of bird? It is very beautiful. It was near a marshy pond and haven't seen anything like this before but the red and yellow color really stand out.
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