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04-30-2012, 09:39 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote


I think there is something legitimately wrong with my K7, or just the camera itself. Maybe it just doesn't like manual lenses like the Kx did.
I'm thinking of buying a Sigma 30mm 1.4 and giving that a whirl. Maybe i need to let the camera do its thing instead of me forcing it to shoot like i shoot film.
Why are you forcing a digital camera to shoot like you shoot film? They are different media with different technical needs. Your K7 shot looks to be a couple of stops (at least) underexposed, while your K-x shots are not anywhere near the same type of subject. You appear to be trying to compare walnuts to bicycles, and wondering why the bicycle doesn't taste good.

04-30-2012, 09:41 AM   #47
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K7 camera settings for High ISO and JPG/14Mp****

QuoteOriginally posted by paulh Quote
These are impressive for OOC jpegs. Mind sharing your camera settings?
Sure I will:

Shot in Av mode with a S-M-C Takumar 1.8/55 lens at 4.0.

ISO-AUTO 200 - 3200/Parameter: Normal D-range: Highlight Correction: On; Shadow Correction: 2/3
Menu/C/3/#19:1; #20:3
These settings (and the +/-:-4 in ‘Custom Image‘) makes it possible to capture photos without noise and with general limitation of black- or white-outs.

Then with the EV+/- wheel adjust to about +4 to 0 the meter.

Then I correct the last bit with the EV+/- wheel as I shoot.

Custom image: Portrait
Saturation: 0
Nuance: 0
High/Low Key: -4 (Check ‘Adam‘ and ‘Chipvn‘ advise on digital noise: K-7 High ISO Success!)
Contrast: +2
Cont. Highlight: +1
Cont. Shadow: +3
Sharpness: FS2 +2


Regards

Last edited by jt_cph_dk; 04-30-2012 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Edit text
04-30-2012, 09:45 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Why are you forcing a digital camera to shoot like you shoot film? They are different media with different technical needs. Your K7 shot looks to be a couple of stops (at least) underexposed, while your K-x shots are not anywhere near the same type of subject. You appear to be trying to compare walnuts to bicycles, and wondering why the bicycle doesn't taste good.
Thats what im getting at, that shot was what the K7 was telling me was correct exposure with correct focus. And i tried this particular shot with spot, multi segment and just my own guesstimation. The shots where i opened up about 3 stops or so in shutter speed the highlights started blowing up left and right.
04-30-2012, 09:45 AM   #49
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Wheat makes a good point, the KX sensor is a newer sensor. incremental improvements generation to generation are the norm. I went to the K7 from a K10 so from my perspective it performs quite well. I did try the kx and returned it. the high iso was good but the ergonomics were a loser for me (being used to the 2 wheel setup and selectable focus not to mention WR etc)
Jogiba makes a good point on the K-01. If you sell the Kx and get the K-01 the cost won't be much and you'll get K5 level performance and some useful options not in the DSLR line (focus peaking would be nice to have with fast lenses IMO)
While it doesn't quite match the overall DR of a K% it slaughters a Kx and a K7

It does sound though like there may be an issue with the metering as well on your k7 no way to be sure without servicing it though.
While mine occasionally takes a wonky reading with manual lenses (as do all the cameras in my experience) it's generally not been bad. I can't talk to the examples because there is no exif info

04-30-2012, 09:55 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote
Thats what im getting at, that shot was what the K7 was telling me was correct exposure with correct focus. And i tried this particular shot with spot, multi segment and just my own guesstimation. The shots where i opened up about 3 stops or so in shutter speed the highlights started blowing up left and right.
what lens was this?
Older non a lenses tend to meter inconsistently routinely being out 1/2-1 stop for instance. Also what focus screen is in the K7. If it's anything like a katzeye or canon ees the screen may be causing exposure errors itself.
To be fair though the true measure is to go shoot some identical scenes with both cameras and shoot to what the meter suggests then you have a valid comparison
Pick a scene like the last one which would be a challenge for a k5 from the looks of it to get the DR for hi and low areas without use of a tripod (it does look badly under exposed - what was the metering type spot is the best for this kind of light meter a couple of zones and average for what you want to be the best exposed area
04-30-2012, 11:06 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
what lens was this?
Older non a lenses tend to meter inconsistently routinely being out 1/2-1 stop for instance. Also what focus screen is in the K7. If it's anything like a katzeye or canon ees the screen may be causing exposure errors itself.
To be fair though the true measure is to go shoot some identical scenes with both cameras and shoot to what the meter suggests then you have a valid comparison
Pick a scene like the last one which would be a challenge for a k5 from the looks of it to get the DR for hi and low areas without use of a tripod (it does look badly under exposed - what was the metering type spot is the best for this kind of light meter a couple of zones and average for what you want to be the best exposed area

Its a M42 Soliger 28mm 2.8.
I've used this lens quite a bit in the past and never had any problems. On my Kx (which i sold) i used to just set it to over expose by 2 stops. But when i tried this with the K7 it works only in certain situations. I could go from getting closer exposures to getting nuclear blow out. So its a complete crap shoot.
04-30-2012, 11:16 AM   #52
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What happens if you try 5 shot bracket, 5ev range? Is anything usable or is it just 100% suck?

Focus looks way off, I can easily believe the focus confirmation dot is wrong. Perhaps try focusing with live view, on a tripod, until you get sharp images then switch back to the viewfinder and see exactly how far off the phase detect system is.
04-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote
Its a M42 Soliger 28mm 2.8.
I've used this lens quite a bit in the past and never had any problems. On my Kx (which i sold) i used to just set it to over expose by 2 stops. But when i tried this with the K7 it works only in certain situations. I could go from getting closer exposures to getting nuclear blow out. So its a complete crap shoot.
Kx and K7 have different meters (77 segment versus 16 segment) not sure how that affects the Center and spot meter though. Generally i spot meter difficult scenes. Do you have a hand held meter. you could do some tests to compare the metering to come up with a more accurate +- ev setting (I find on m42 lenses its not consistent across the aperture range and can vary a fair bit - on all 2 cameras i own for that matter, but different on all of them) I have a hand held so I use it for difficult scenes or just use Sunny 16 (I have a printout of the exposure calculator in my bag and an app on my phone that is pretty accurate - meters can be fooled by some scenes quite badly the dim barn with bright exteriors would be a classic which is why I suggested comparing the 2 in the same environment)

04-30-2012, 11:32 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote
Thats what im getting at, that shot was what the K7 was telling me was correct exposure with correct focus. And i tried this particular shot with spot, multi segment and just my own guesstimation. The shots where i opened up about 3 stops or so in shutter speed the highlights started blowing up left and right.
The K7 scene is a pretty tough one. Your K-x had a 2 stop longer dynamic range than the K7, and also scores significantly better in low light (using DXO as a comparator).
Even with the K5, I would probably be doing an HDR image of that last (K7) scene. With the K7, I would definitely be doing an HDR.
04-30-2012, 11:46 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote
So I'm a big film shooter and a while back i grabbed a Kx for my first digital and i loved it. But eventually i felt the need to step my game up a little bit and i really wanted a slightly bigger camera ( huge hands). So i got my hands on a K5 at a camera store and i LOVED how it felt in my hands. I loved the controls, the battery grip, it was all what i was looking for that my Kx didn't have. Now i looked across the specs between the K7 and the K5 and i couldn't really justify the extra $300 for a camera that appeared to be nearly comparable to the K5 in every way. Or at least in every way that i cared about. So i lurked Ebay and found a mint K7 body with a battery grip and i snatched that up for $500.

And i have been constantly disappointed since.
I LOVE the camera itself but eveything else . . is dick.
the sensor is nothing but noise, even at ISO 100 its noisier than my Kx was at 400. At 400 the K7 feels like its at 1600-3200.
The sunny 16 rule is about 3 stops under exposed on the sensor. Even the auto modes on the K7 are almost black all the time. And if i open up to grab some shadow detail ALL my highlights blow the **** out pretty much always. its like BOOM Highlight head shot, PICTURE MEGA KILL!!

Has anyone else experienced this? or is it just me? All my firware is up to date and im using the same manual lenses that i did with my Kx.
Is there some magic setting in this camera? a button to turn off the suck option?
At the time of its release, the K7 was a good camera with a very good sensor, but it was quickly surpassed by its little brother the K-x, when it comes to noise especially at higher ISO, It is not a bad camera as such, but when you mention you had initially started with a K5 the K7 is a step back.

I have had a lot of experience with pentax DSLRs. TO be blunt about it, the K10D was a step backwards in terms of noise to the entire range of 6.1 MP cameras produced before it with respect to high ISO noise, but it had so many other great features it was still superior. the K20 and K7 had a better sensor than the K10 and also somewhat better than the 6MP cameras with respect to noise, and were far superior with respect to resolution at 14MP. then came the K-x K-r and K5D, and simply excellent high ISO performance. WIth the K5 I shoot wildlife with ling lenses, and have set the camera to auto ISO with the top limit 6400, trading at the high end, a little more noise, to retain 1/500 shutter speed and F11 effective aperture on a 400mm lens. there is no way you could do that with any of the other flagship cameras.
04-30-2012, 02:08 PM   #56
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I just sold my K-7 not long ago. K-7 is a high level camera body for sure. But the facts is that due to the sensor limitation(not sure what this really means to everybody), the results mostly depends on your side. Or more accurately, you have to tweak your pictures either in photoshop or raw+ps. For some reason, K-7's .jpg output are not optimized to skin tones and dynamic range. If you look at NC's camera with similar dynamic range. You can see that they will sacrifice highlights and shadows as well but meantime their jpg engine will optimize the tone and adjust the dynamic range to better positioning and amplitude in the histogram. So you'll have less mess in post-processing. So there are many troubles to hobby shooters but this will not be a big problem for advanced shooters and professionals. That's their job to get the best out of the camera sensor in raw file.

QuoteOriginally posted by runslikeapenguin Quote
Its a M42 Soliger 28mm 2.8.
I've used this lens quite a bit in the past and never had any problems. On my Kx (which i sold) i used to just set it to over expose by 2 stops. But when i tried this with the K7 it works only in certain situations. I could go from getting closer exposures to getting nuclear blow out. So its a complete crap shoot.
I experienced similar thing with manual focused lens. For manual focused lens, each lens is different on K-x and K-7 (I used to own both). So you have to try and memorize each of them. And what's more you'll have to do several shots with different exposures to be able to have the right one for post-processing.

Another fix for manual lenses is to upgrade your lens to F, FA or DA lenses. So that your exposure will be more predictable.

Another word for old manual focus lens. Pentax is not generous enough for pentax users. Yes you can mount any non-cpu lenses but their is no aperture feeler so you have to use your green button to do step down metering. So pentax is not perfect yet, be patient and have tolerance . But if you don't mind of being an expert on lightroom and photoshop then shoot in raw and here you go. This process is just like what we did in the bathroom for film camera 20 or 30 years ago .

Forget to mention, use pentax-m lens. They are affordable and are all first class glass. Don't use Soliger etc. They seem cheap to get but very difficult to get rid of.

My 2 cents,
04-30-2012, 03:05 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by benhai Quote
Another fix for manual lenses is to upgrade your lens to F, FA or DA lenses. So that your exposure will be more predictable.
And "A" lenses as well.
04-30-2012, 03:15 PM   #58
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Without knowing how you metered that one shot you posted as evidence of all these horrible problems, it is hard to say what you think the problem is. It's a dark scene, and you've metered it about how I would have also. Are you saying the camera somehow forced you to expose this way when you didn't want to? Also, if you've been using +2 EV compensation on a regular basis with your K-x and not getting consistently terrible shots (horribly blown out), something must have been drastically wrong with the K-x. As for the noise comparison, I think you are exagerating grealt.y Try a side by side comparison - same scene, same lens, same exposure settings - and you'll find that *at most* there is about a one stop noise advantage to the K-x over the K-7; more like half to two-thirds of a stop, really.
04-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #59
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I've owed a K7 since February 2010. My wife shoots with a Kx since June 2010. Whenever I needed the ISO advantage, I turned to the Kx. When the sensitivity wasn't an concern, the K7 performed at least as well as the Kx. However, the K7 always provided me with weather resistance and the Kx never did. There is very little to compare in terms of build quality between Kx & K7, the K7 is clearly superior.
Overall, and with the same lens, I was always please with the IQ of both of these fine cameras. Neither disappointed me. Feature wise the K7 was superior except in terms of ISO.
Along came the K5, which for me, represents a hybrid of the strengths of both cameras. Give or take a bit here or there, that's basically what the K5 is all about.
Now compare those 3 to the K20d and I would say the K20d has the best build quality. For example, I like the mechanism that releases the memory card. It give me somewhat of a "built to military spec" sort of feel.
I never had any of my Pentax bodies fail me and they all take great pictures under the same conditions except for noise levels, whereby the Kx & K5 are the standouts. I enjoyed using all 4 and can't complain one bit. Depending on conditions one body may have an edge over another. While I wouldn't reach for a Kx to go shooting in the rain, I'd grab it without hesitation if shooting in poor light and no flash.
About the only feature I would want that none of the current 4 have is a swivel LCD. I've been trying to get into macro on a tripod and I often wish any one of those 4 would have that feature.
04-30-2012, 04:35 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Without knowing how you metered that one shot you posted as evidence of all these horrible problems, it is hard to say what you think the problem is. It's a dark scene, and you've metered it about how I would have also. Are you saying the camera somehow forced you to expose this way when you didn't want to? Also, if you've been using +2 EV compensation on a regular basis with your K-x and not getting consistently terrible shots (horribly blown out), something must have been drastically wrong with the K-x. As for the noise comparison, I think you are exagerating grealt.y Try a side by side comparison - same scene, same lens, same exposure settings - and you'll find that *at most* there is about a one stop noise advantage to the K-x over the K-7; more like half to two-thirds of a stop, really.

Every manual lens i have used on my Kx needed about 2 stops of over exposure. And now my K7 feel the same way EXCEPT, with the K7 its not consistent like the Kx was. The only time i remember having to dial the compensation down on the Kx was when i was shooting at a beach with no clouds. But the K7, if i turn the compensation up it has a tendency to blow up any highlights in a scene.

i would do a comparison but i dont have the Kx any more. I'll see what i can post straight out of the camera here to explain what i mean.
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