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05-23-2012, 07:20 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
I use Linux 90% of the time (my laptop has Windows). Right now I'm using one of my licenses for Photoshop through WINE. I don't have to use Photoshop, but I like it a lot and have used it since v5.5. There is a large number of image viewer/editor programs available on Linux that can read DNG. The other benefit is that I can easily and quickly see previews of DNG files in Dolphin the KDE file browser (worked in ubuntu as well with Gnome). I assume the situation is similar for PEF, but I haven't used it in a long time and I don't know if those programs have to be updated for every camera release or not. DNG just simplifies my post process.

I didn't really read the thread to see if there is any controversy around this, but all I know is that personally DNG support is one of the reasons I use Pentax over other brands. Note that this does not include DNGs from the Adobe Converter program, because some programs won't read them (I'm looking at you Corel Aftershot/Bibble). I'm talking about DNGs from the camera.

That is a good point about dng converted by the Adobe Convertor.


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The PEF-format is different for each camera model. The *ist D, DS and DL has three different PEF's. And when I bought my K10D I couldn't use PEF in other software right away even if they supported my *ist DS, it took months for other software companies to release a new version that worked with the K10D PEF. Same story when I got the K-x... new camera, new PEF. But those old cameras are still support in most softwares, yes even the *ist D... So no danger here.
The part in yellow was what I was writing about though. You can't open PEF from K-5 and some cameras newer than the K20d in CS3.



QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote

Q, K-01 and K-30 ships with Silkypix Developer Studio 3.0 for Pentax, a specially tuned Developer Studio.
You know, the Pentax Digital Camera Utility used the Silkypix image engine, but had its own and simpler front end. Now we get a fuller version...
I found this interesting since the K-7 and K-5 were released with Silkypix 4.x

05-23-2012, 08:05 AM   #62
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I think it is an excellent move, because it does not cost really any more "headroom" on the file size and it offers a significant cost savings to the customer,

Many programs require minimal cost updates to include every new camera model that comes out, Shooting DNG should stop that. I had that problem with Corel PSP where it could be over a year late in updating the program to read new cameras, and they generally rolled this into an update fee, for other program improvements.

DNG is a much better bet.

For those who have a ton of stuf stored as PEF, adobe makes a DNG converter so no need to open and resave.
05-23-2012, 08:27 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I think it is an excellent move, because it does not cost really any more "headroom" on the file size and it offers a significant cost savings to the customer,

Many programs require minimal cost updates to include every new camera model that comes out, Shooting DNG should stop that. I had that problem with Corel PSP where it could be over a year late in updating the program to read new cameras, and they generally rolled this into an update fee, for other program improvements.

DNG is a much better bet.

For those who have a ton of stuf stored as PEF, adobe makes a DNG converter so no need to open and resave.
Not all programs will recognize the file converted with the adobe dng convertor or will be able to open it. I have encountered that with converted ORF files.
05-23-2012, 08:46 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
I use Linux 90% of the time (my laptop has Windows).
Ditto here

QuoteQuote:
There is a large number of image viewer/editor programs available on Linux that can read DNG. The other benefit is that I can easily and quickly see previews of DNG files in Dolphin the KDE file browser (worked in ubuntu as well with Gnome). I assume the situation is similar for PEF, but I haven't used it in a long time and I don't know if those programs have to be updated for every camera release or not.
Both DNG and PEF thumbnails are handled by the same DCRAW library that generates them. The servicefile for it is in /usr/share/kde4 and is called rawthumbnail.desktop.
Code:
X-KDE-ServiceTypes=ThumbCreator
# image/x-dcraw is the subclass for all "raw" image formats, so no need to list them all
MimeType=image/x-dcraw;
All of the raw converters I use read both PEF and DNG. PEF can be easily converted to DNG by one of the KIPI-plugins. DNG to PEF is a big no-no.

05-23-2012, 08:59 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
It is a standard, but not all the makers use it. Canon, Nikon, Oly, etc. which is a large number of units out there.
That's not the point, you where saying that Adobe will screw us over but they can't since it's an ISO standard.
Or are you missing the point?

QuoteQuote:
It isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It just is.
Preciesly so what is the purpose of brining it up, if it has no value.

QuoteQuote:
Actually, the point was that TIFF has been an industry standard since before you were born, and most makers have used it and many still do on some of their high end models because many publications used to require TIFF files. Many will take TIFF or high res JPG for publications now. The software issue with Adobe products is real regarding proprietary Raw. The don't update it when new versions come out.
What an argument, because it's old it's better, is that what you're saying?
TIFF is now also under control off Adobe btw.
And about the adobe software, point me to a RAW converter or image software that doesn't do the same thing when they come out with a new version, the finger is always pointed at adobe while everyone does it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I am defending Adobe but I am still using CS3? Hardly! With cameras that came out since it like the K-5, Oly, Panny (ORF, RW2), I can't open the proprietary raw files in CS3. That is why I use dng on the K-5. Oly don't do dng so I have to convert to dng or use GIMP. Yes, Adobe orphans their previous versions of software.
That is not what you said, you said this
QuoteQuote:
I can open the newer proprietary raw files from my Oly or Panny in CS3
So what is it now?

QuoteQuote:
IF it doesn't show up, you do have to update it.
update to what, there is no update available?
05-23-2012, 09:06 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
That is a good point about dng converted by the Adobe Convertor.
The converter convert the DNG to DNG 1.3 or 1.4 that added extra functionality.
It depends on the coding of the program, some simply ignore the extra data when it was designed for 1.1 for example but other programs try to read every information and can't make sense of the extra bits.

It's not fault off Adobe but of the other software makers.


If you get new tires on your car and 1 of the tires runs off the wheel, will you blame the person who fitted the tire or will you blame the tire company to make a tire that someone wasn't able to install (while the other 3 tires are al right)

Last edited by Anvh; 05-23-2012 at 09:11 AM.
05-23-2012, 09:19 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
That's not the point, you where saying that Adobe will screw us over but they can't since it's an ISO standard.
Or are you missing the point?
Apparently you are missing the point. I said dng is a standard. However, it hasn't been adopted by Canon, Nikon, Oly, and Panny.


QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Preciesly so what is the purpose of brining it up, if it has no value.
because you keep rehashing the same territory.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
What an argument, because it's old it's better, is that what you're saying?
TIFF is now also under control off Adobe btw.
And about the adobe software, point me to a RAW converter or image software that doesn't do the same thing when they come out with a new version, the finger is always pointed at adobe while everyone does it.
I didn't say it was better. However, it was open when Adobe started the dng project. The point was it has been used by more camera makers. First you accuse me of defending adobe, now you accuse me of attacking adobe. You just joined the 2 people on my ignore list. We have already covered this area 3 times.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
That is not what you said, you said this

So what is it now?
What part about they don't open in CS3 don't you under stand?

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
update to what, there is no update available?
If the Windoew Explorer isn't viewing the jpg in the PEF, it needs to be reinstalled.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
The converter convert the DNG to DNG 1.3 or 1.4 that added extra functionality.
It depends on the coding of the program, some simply ignore the extra data when it was designed for 1.1 for example but other programs try to read every information and can't make sense of the extra bits.

It's not fault off Adobe but of the other software makers.


If you get new tires on your car and 1 of the tires runs off the wheel, will you blame the person who fitted the tire or will you blame the tire company to make a tire that someone wasn't able to install (while the other 3 tires are al right)
Straw man argument and I am not the only one to point this out but you attack me over it. However, welcome to the ignore list.

Last edited by Blue; 05-23-2012 at 09:24 AM.
05-23-2012, 11:07 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Apparently you are missing the point. I said dng is a standard. However, it hasn't been adopted by Canon, Nikon, Oly, and Panny.
That was not the subject.
My comments here was about this.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
On the other side, I hate to be hitched up to Adobe. They like to orphan things with every version of photoshop that comes out. Try using a Pentax K-5 PEF in CS3. The biggest advantage of PEF in the past was the smaller file size.
My defence was that DNG is an ISO standard and because of that it's a stable file format and now you say i don't get your point because what you said it is about Canon, Nikon, Oly, and Panny not using DNG.
There is just no way to talk with you, we have it about 3 different subjects and you keep mixing them about to your liking.


QuoteQuote:
because you keep rehashing the same territory.
I don't you do that, just look at the comment above, you keep changing subjects with each comment you give.
You keep rehearsing and add nothing.


QuoteQuote:
First you accuse me of defending adobe, now you accuse me of attacking adobe.
QuoteQuote:
What part about they don't open in CS3 don't you under stand?
That's because you first say you CAN open and a comment later you say you CAN'T
I asked what that was about but somehow that's too much for you to explain it seems.

QuoteQuote:
If the Windoew Explorer isn't viewing the jpg in the PEF, it needs to be reinstalled.
This what i mean reinstalling and updating are 2 different things
How can you be sure it reads the RAW data and not the JPEG?
Reduce the saturation in the PEF so that it is black and white, and then tell me if Windows Explorer show the photo as black and white or in colour.


QuoteQuote:
Straw man argument and I am not the only one to point this out but you attack me over it. However, welcome to the ignore list.
Oh sorry maybe you didn't get my point and you ignoring me now does not change it. Adobe didn't change the core of DNG they only added things beside that if Programs have problems reading the core information it's their fault for implementing the DNG incorrectly, how else do you explain 2 programs have problems while the other 30 or so programs don't have any problems?

Who said i was only attacking you beside yourself? I'm know about the fact that sjwaldron also said it and i also commented to him earlier, do i need to comment twice to him?

I don't mind being on your ignore list, there is no way to talk with you, you keep changing subjects.

05-23-2012, 01:27 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
. . .

I don't mind being on your ignore list, there is no way to talk with you, you keep changing subjects.

Take a deep breath and relax. It is probably a language barrier thing. However, it is simple, Pentax has decided to drop PEF under Ricoh. Whether that would have happened if they remained under Hoya, we will likely never know. However, the point was made that newer PEF files aren't recognized in older versions of CS such as CS3 whereas DNG files are. The only advantage PEF had was size and that went away as dng became compressed by cameras that use it, but not all use it.

Adobe is a Corporation. It isn't like they are GIMP. I have wondered if Adobe's ulterior motives may have been to assimilate and displace TIFF which was already a standard when their dng project began. I also wonder if Canon, Nikon etc. will ever adopt it.
05-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I can open K5 DNGs in Photoshop 7 (the first Photoshop to have a raw converter, IIRC)
Exactly. I ditched PEF a good while ago when I got the K-x and the K-5 would have been the same drama again. CS3 + $600 in my pocket serves my needs right now.
05-23-2012, 02:53 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by FlashCube Quote
Take a deep breath and relax. It is probably a language barrier thing. However, it is simple, Pentax has decided to drop PEF under Ricoh. Whether that would have happened if they remained under Hoya, we will likely never know. However, the point was made that newer PEF files aren't recognized in older versions of CS such as CS3 whereas DNG files are. The only advantage PEF had was size and that went away as dng became compressed by cameras that use it, but not all use it.

Adobe is a Corporation. It isn't like they are GIMP. I have wondered if Adobe's ulterior motives may have been to assimilate and displace TIFF which was already a standard when their dng project began. I also wonder if Canon, Nikon etc. will ever adopt it.
I got those points and never disagreed with them.

About TIFF and DNG, adobe owns them both now.
TIFF is for images while DNG is for photos only.
They serve 2 different markets for 2 differnt purposes.

If you do photo edit in photoshop, you can save in TIFF but not in DNG for example.
05-23-2012, 03:55 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Exactly. I ditched PEF a good while ago when I got the K-x and the K-5 would have been the same drama again.


in my pocket serves my needs right now.
I am with you on that. I can get an educational discount but still hate to give up the money. I have been considering the Creative Cloud that includes CS6 for $29/month for a year, but then after the year, I wouldn't be left with an outdated C6. I wish I was better with GIMP than I am.
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