[Anvh]

What are you talking about? PEF was compressed more on older Cameras but that isn't the case anymore in that dng is compressed more.

The K7 was the first with DNG compression, that camera is from may 2009, Ricoh bought Pentax end of last year so Pentax compressed DNG 2 years before Ricoh bought them.

Thats what i'm talking about.
You're saying DNG are compressed because of Ricoh but that simply isn't true.

[Anvh]

I switched to DNG the moment a Pentax camera offered it. I can't say Adobe's forced upgrade process wasn't good motivation. I used Photoshop CS2 for a long time thanks to DNG support.

Every company does that, well most in general but all RAW converters force you to upgrade because they stop developing on the old product when the new one is out.
Windows funny enough has a long support for their products, XP for example has been updated till beginning this year.

[Anvh]

You can get the Pentax RawCodec so your widows will display the PEF thumbnails. I have been using DNG mostly because I still use CS3 (and occasionally GIMP). If you don't want the boxcars, you can just delete them.

What are you talking about now, what has that to do with the discussion?

Any way the thumbnale is simply the JPEg preview embedded in the RAW nothing more, it isn't the actually the RAW data you're seeing so lets not go that way/

[twitch]

It could be a lot worse, Samsung RAW files out of the NX200 (12 bit crop 20MP camera) are 45 MB

[Anvh]

With much more scope for things to go wrong and the file to get corrupted since it is rewritten every time you change its development settings.

There isnt, you misunderstood it.
With PEF the XMP is placed outside the file with DNG the same XMP is placed inside the file.

See DNG as a folder, it holds the actual sensor data in a file, you got a file with camera information and how program should read the camera information and you have the XMP all seperate files inside the DNG.
If the XMP gets corrupted you can simply ignore it and get the original data.

[Blue]

The K7 was the first with DNG compression, that camera is from may 2009, Ricoh bought Pentax end of last year so Pentax compressed DNG 2 years before Ricoh bought them.

Thats what i'm talking about.
You're saying DNG are compressed because of Ricoh but that simply isn't true.

And the K-7 also had the PEF option. No release under Ricoh has had the PEF option.

What are you talking about now, what has that to do with the discussion?

Any way the thumbnale is simply the JPEg preview embedded in the RAW nothing more, it isn't the actually the RAW data you're seeing so lets not go that way/

It was in response to Philbaum's post, specifically this part:

b. My windows 7 will read DNG files when i click on them, it won't read the PEF files without LR. As far as i know

Any way the thumbnale is simply the JPEg preview embedded in the RAW nothing more, it isn't the actually the RAW data you're seeing so lets not go that way/

If the PEF codec is not up to date, the thumbnail will not be displayed. That is why I suggested he update the Pentax Windows Codec.

[Wheatfield]

On the other side, I hate to be hitched up to Adobe. They like to orphan things with every version of photoshop that comes out. Try using a Pentax K-5 PEF in CS3. The biggest advantage of PEF in the past was the smaller file size.

I can open K5 DNGs in Photoshop 7 (the first Photoshop to have a raw converter, IIRC)

[Anvh]

Its a standard, but not the only standard. Adobe set the standard and muscled their way through the "open source" movement at the time. Go research open source on this matter. It isn't accepted as a standard by everyone.

Please read this thing up okay before commenting.
Adobe made DNG and they have ask ISO (international standard organization) to give the status standard, and they have that status now.
DNG is an ISO standard, that is something very different you're suggesting now.

That they haven't accepted or rather adopted it at least yet. You had to go to one of the "niche" or "minority" camera makers I mentioned earlier to get and example, Leica.

And that is a bad thing?

You kind of missed the point there. Plus, TIFF was around before DNG. TIFF has been around since the mid80s and was in fact developed as a common scan image format. The past 3 years I have primarily used DNG, and PEF to some degree. Mostly because I still use CS3 (probably not much longer though) and GIMP. Before 2008, I used TIFF mainly and still do on scanned images and a few other situations.

And you're missing the point here.
You made the point that highend camera can make TIFF files, so dont go now back to software again and what you use personally...

[Blue]

I can open K5 DNGs in Photoshop 7 (the first Photoshop to have a raw converter, IIRC)

If you will re-read it, you will see I stated try opening the PEF in CS3. If you go back and look, you will see where I stated I have been using DNG since I am still using CS3. I can not open the newer proprietary raw files from my Oly or Panny in CS3 either and they don't have a dng option.

[Anvh]

And the K-7 also had the PEF option. No release under Ricoh has had the PEF option.

Great but irrelevant to what you said.
You clearly stated that Pentax is using compress DNG because of Ricoh but the isn't true. Hoya already compress DNG 2 years before Ricoh took over.
End of discussion.

It was in response to Philbaum's post, specifically this part:

my mistake

If the PEF codec is not up to date, the thumbnail will not be displayed. That is why I suggested he update the Pentax Windows Codec.

There is only one version of the PEF codec as far as i know because it does not read the RAW information it simply extract the JPEG preview. You dont need up to date codec for that.

[Anvh]

If you will re-read it, you will see I stated try opening the PEF in CS3. If you go back and look, you will see where I stated I have been using DNG since I am still using CS3. I can open the newer proprietary raw files from my Oly or Panny in CS3 either and they don't have a dng option.

You sure you can open?
It certainly isnt the case with Nikon and Canon RAW files.

But why did you say this actually?
On the other side, I hate to be hitched up to Adobe. They like to orphan things with every version of photoshop that comes out.

It seems you're mad but in your latest comment you're defending adobe it seems...

[Blue]

Please read this thing up okay before commenting.
Adobe made DNG and they have ask ISO (international standard organization) to give the status standard, and they have that status now.
DNG is an ISO standard, that is something very different you're suggesting now.

It is a standard, but not all the makers use it. Canon, Nikon, Oly, etc. which is a large number of units out there.

And that is a bad thing?

It isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It just is.

And you're missing the point here.
You made the point that highend camera can make TIFF files, so dont go now back to software again and what you use personally...

Actually, the point was that TIFF has been an industry standard since before you were born, and most makers have used it and many still do on some of their high end models because many publications used to require TIFF files. Many will take TIFF or high res JPG for publications now. The software issue with Adobe products is real regarding proprietary Raw. The don't update it when new versions come out.

[Blue]

You sure you can open?
It certainly isnt the case with Nikon and Canon RAW files.

But why did you say this actually?
On the other side, I hate to be hitched up to Adobe. They like to orphan things with every version of photoshop that comes out.

It seems you're mad but in your latest comment you're defending adobe it seems...

I am defending Adobe but I am still using CS3? Hardly! With cameras that came out since it like the K-5, Oly, Panny (ORF, RW2), I can't open the proprietary raw files in CS3. That is why I use dng on the K-5. Oly don't do dng so I have to convert to dng or use GIMP. Yes, Adobe orphans their previous versions of software.

Great but irrelevant to what you said.
You clearly stated that Pentax is using compress DNG because of Ricoh but the isn't true. Hoya already compress DNG 2 years before Ricoh took over.
End of discussion.

NO, I did not say Pentax uses compressed DNG because of Ricoh. What I said was, PEF went away under Ricoh. I also said at one time PEF's biggest advantage was it was smaller prior to dng compression.

here is only one version of the PEF codec as far as i know because it does not read the RAW information it simply extract the JPEG preview. You dont need up to date codec for that.

IF it doesn't show up, you do have to update it.

[sjwaldron]

Every company does that, well most in general but all RAW converters force you to upgrade because they stop developing on the old product when the new one is out. Windows funny enough has a long support for their products, XP for example has been updated till beginning this year.

I use Linux 90% of the time (my laptop has Windows). Right now I'm using one of my licenses for Photoshop through WINE. I don't have to use Photoshop, but I like it a lot and have used it since v5.5. There is a large number of image viewer/editor programs available on Linux that can read DNG. The other benefit is that I can easily and quickly see previews of DNG files in Dolphin the KDE file browser (worked in ubuntu as well with Gnome). I assume the situation is similar for PEF, but I haven't used it in a long time and I don't know if those programs have to be updated for every camera release or not. DNG just simplifies my post process.

I didn't really read the thread to see if there is any controversy around this, but all I know is that personally DNG support is one of the reasons I use Pentax over other brands. Note that this does not include DNGs from the Adobe Converter program, because some programs won't read them (I'm looking at you Corel Aftershot/Bibble). I'm talking about DNGs from the camera.

[RMabo]

The PEF-format is different for each camera model. The *ist D, DS and DL has three different PEF's. And when I bought my K10D I couldn't use PEF in other software right away even if they supported my *ist DS, it took months for other software companies to release a new version that worked with the K10D PEF. Same story when I got the K-x... new camera, new PEF. But those old cameras are still support in most softwares, yes even the *ist D... So no danger here.

Q, K-01 and K-30 ships with Silkypix Developer Studio 3.0 for Pentax, a specially tuned Developer Studio.
You know, the Pentax Digital Camera Utility used the Silkypix image engine, but had its own and simpler front end. Now we get a fuller version...