k10D B&W Help

rrivera · 01-21-2008, 08:02 PM

I just recently purchased the K10D, and please tell me that i am wrong, it seems that i can't make this camera to automatically take B&W photo's, the only way is to take a color photo (jpg) and use the B&W filter after... the other way is to modify it in an art program

So my question is? Is this true, i can't select anywhere to automaticaly save each pic i take as black and white?

Say it aint so?

little laker · 01-21-2008, 08:07 PM

Welcome to Pentax Forums rrivera

That is the truth, and I wouldn't worry about it.
Just about every software program has a greyscale setting, which probably does a better job than the camera would anyways.

I don't believe that any DSLR's have a B&W setting.

You've got a great camera there, and I'm sure that you'll grow to love every feature it has.

rrivera · 01-21-2008, 08:11 PM

Yeah but, you think you spend enough money on this, you would think you would have this simple feature... Not even the art programs it comes with has this to convert pics to B&W... I just looked at several comparable camaras and they have this feature...

PentaxPoke · 01-21-2008, 08:30 PM

I disagree. It is silly to take a digital picture in B&W. You can't make color from B&W, but you can do the reverse. It would be a shame to set the camera to record in B&W and then wish you had the color later. I like the way the Pentax engineers designed the B&W feature. If you want it, you get a B&W copy image of the color.

George Lama · 01-21-2008, 09:12 PM

It has nothing to do with the price of the camera, but the philosophy behind it. Pentax perhaps didn't feel it was a feature worth including. Considering you can do the same thing with free image manipulation programs (Irfanview and FastStone are two) and every other image manipulation program out there, it's just not an issue.

I valued weather sealing, dust removal, and built-in image stabilization (SR) among a few dozen other features - there are $5000 cameras out there do not have any of that and will get toasted the first time they get rained on.

However, B&W is obviously something you value and should have looked into before purchasing.

Best of luck!

christinelandon · 01-21-2008, 11:55 PM

rrivera, from one manufacturer to the next, there are various ways of producing in-camera B&W conversions from RAW or JPEG shots. Pentax lets you save a copy as a B&W conversion from JPEG, with several "contrast filter" effects or sepia tones.

But, as other respondents to your post have noted, why settle for a handful of in-camera B&W conversion presets when you can learn Ansel Adams-quality conversion techniques in Photoshop or other software, stuff that goes way beyond "Convert to Grayscale" and involves Adjustment Layers with variable opacity, Channel Mixers, Shadow/Highlight adjustments, or advanced conversion filters from nik software or other plug-in makers? Why not put a bit of your own "eye" and skill and passion into your B&W work instead of just making a menu choice in-camera? As an old wet darkroom worker, I can assure you that beautiful B&W output (on paper or via pixels) takes practice and experimentation. You need to work your vision until you learn to see in B&W and learn to translate your vision with command and confidence. No camera yet has demonstrated B&W mastery to compare with that of a skilled and sensitive photographer, IMO.

J.Scott · 01-22-2008, 03:11 AM

There is a way to get good B&W pictures - use film!

If you had done your homework before buying the camera you would know that the K10D can't take B&W pics; but will do conversions from colour as noted above. One can simulate B&W by desaturating and using a host of software magic but the results often pale by comparison to B&W film. Cost has little to do with the matter.

I feel your pain - that is why I still have and use film. :ugh:

Last edited by J.Scott; 01-22-2008 at 03:18 AM.

Phil · 01-22-2008, 08:27 PM

I agree with J.Scott, I will never get rid of my film cameras. I really like my K10D but there is just something about a print made from a negative that digital can never match. At least not in my lifetime but then I'm an old fart.

Cheers,

Phil

Tom M · 01-22-2008, 08:42 PM

This is interesting. I purchased a K1000 so I could use my glass to shoot B&W CN (color negative) film.. Then I realized I prefer TX. Then I realized I'd rather develop TX myself. Now I'm thinking that I'd like to make prints as well so I'm looking for an enlarger. Then of course I'd like to do large liquid emulsion prints so I need a swivel-head enlarger... Trust me, you shooting B&W is gonna get expensive

mattdm · 01-22-2008, 09:46 PM

Since each photosite is physically covered with a green, red, or blue filter, the images captured are inherently colored. The camera could convert to grayscale automatically, but it wouldn't necessarily know which blend of filtered color is best. I agree that it'd be nice if you could preset this, or have a series of stored presets, and capture right to B&W jpeg.

Kodak produced a true black and white camera for a while, but it didn't succeed in the marketplace.

WMBP · 01-22-2008, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by little laker

I don't believe that any DSLR's have a B&W setting.

What I thought, too. But in his review of the K10D, Sean Reid complains that it lacks black and white preview and claims that most other manufacturers have sorted this out by now. That was a surprise to me, but apparently there's something to it. The Nikon D2X seems to be one of the cameras that can save the raw file with a black and white preview. Sean Reid--who seems to be almost entirely interested in black and white--says that this helps him tell quickly whether the shot is going to come out (in b&w) as he hopes. Note that you still have the raw capture file, so the images you move to your computer will have color info. This can be useful for further b&w processing on your computer, as it allows you to play with color channels. But I guess I can see the point of shooting in black and white mode, as an option for some photographers.

Anyway, you can't do it on the K10D. You can shoot, then convert in camera, but that of course is a pain in the neck. About one-third of my shots end up as black and white. Sometimes I know when I'm shooting that it's going to be a good photo for grayscale treatment, sometimes I don't know or I'm simply not thinking about it. I have also taken quite a few shots that I thought would work well in b&w/grayscale that, in the end, looked better in color. Anyway, I only shoot raw and I'm grateful to have all the info, including the color info.

Will

P.S. Done a bit more reading (including reading Sean Reid's old article about the Nikon D200) and I gather that, in fact, quite a few other dslr cameras have a raw + b&w preview option. Maybe it will be there in the K20D?

HGMonaro · 01-23-2008, 03:56 AM

As a predomiately B&W film shooter (MF and LF) if someone made a B&W only digi body I'd might buy one but it's gotta be in the Pentax LX / ME Super / etc vain (actually I'd prefer a Nikon FM2n version as I have lots of Nikkor Ais glass) and not that overweight, overpriced Kodak thing that was once available. Taking B&W pics is a different mindset than converting things your took in color and then decided might look better in B&W, and as mentioned above, there's potential to make a killer sensor without all the colour filters and processing required.

Duck Dodgers · 01-23-2008, 10:30 AM

I'm not sure how an in-camera B&W could ever "know" just exactly what the photographer was after. Did he wish it to be rendered as if had used a red filter? Or an orange? What about green or blue filters? Best left to the photog in pp, IMHO.

mawz · 01-23-2008, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

I disagree. It is silly to take a digital picture in B&W. You can't make color from B&W, but you can do the reverse. It would be a shame to set the camera to record in B&W and then wish you had the color later. I like the way the Pentax engineers designed the B&W feature. If you want it, you get a B&W copy image of the color.

RAW+JPEG allows for both. RAW's are inherently in colour, pairing them with a B&W JPEG works very well on cameras that have B&W shooting modes.

mawz · 01-23-2008, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by WMBP

What I thought, too. But in his review of the K10D, Sean Reid complains that it lacks black and white preview and claims that most other manufacturers have sorted this out by now. That was a surprise to me, but apparently there's something to it. The Nikon D2X seems to be one of the cameras that can save the raw file with a black and white preview. Sean Reid--who seems to be almost entirely interested in black and white--says that this helps him tell quickly whether the shot is going to come out (in b&w) as he hopes. Note that you still have the raw capture file, so the images you move to your computer will have color info. This can be useful for further b&w processing on your computer, as it allows you to play with color channels. But I guess I can see the point of shooting in black and white mode, as an option for some photographers.

Anyway, you can't do it on the K10D. You can shoot, then convert in camera, but that of course is a pain in the neck. About one-third of my shots end up as black and white. Sometimes I know when I'm shooting that it's going to be a good photo for grayscale treatment, sometimes I don't know or I'm simply not thinking about it. I have also taken quite a few shots that I thought would work well in b&w/grayscale that, in the end, looked better in color. Anyway, I only shoot raw and I'm grateful to have all the info, including the color info.

Will

P.S. Done a bit more reading (including reading Sean Reid's old article about the Nikon D200) and I gather that, in fact, quite a few other dslr cameras have a raw + b&w preview option. Maybe it will be there in the K20D?

RAW+B&W JPEG is available across the Nikon, Canon and Sony lines. The Canon setup is particularly good as you can select contrast filters as well. I haven't played enough with the Nikon or Sony B&W options to know how in-depth they are.

As a fairly serious B&W shooter, this feature is one of the two things I miss on the K10D (the other being higher ISO options). Thankfully both are resolved on the K20D.

01-21-2008, 08:02 PM	#1
rrivera Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2	k10D B&W Help I just recently purchased the K10D, and please tell me that i am wrong, it seems that i can't make this camera to automatically take B&W photo's, the only way is to take a color photo (jpg) and use the B&W filter after... the other way is to modify it in an art program So my question is? Is this true, i can't select anywhere to automaticaly save each pic i take as black and white? Say it aint so?

01-22-2008, 09:46 PM	#10
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	There's a reason for it... Since each photosite is physically covered with a green, red, or blue filter, the images captured are inherently colored. The camera could convert to grayscale automatically, but it wouldn't necessarily know which blend of filtered color is best. I agree that it'd be nice if you could preset this, or have a series of stored presets, and capture right to B&W jpeg. Kodak produced a true black and white camera for a while, but it didn't succeed in the marketplace.

01-22-2008, 10:17 PM	#11
WMBP Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,482	Originally posted by little laker I don't believe that any DSLR's have a B&W setting. What I thought, too. But in his review of the K10D, Sean Reid complains that it lacks black and white preview and claims that most other manufacturers have sorted this out by now. That was a surprise to me, but apparently there's something to it. The Nikon D2X seems to be one of the cameras that can save the raw file with a black and white preview. Sean Reid--who seems to be almost entirely interested in black and white--says that this helps him tell quickly whether the shot is going to come out (in b&w) as he hopes. Note that you still have the raw capture file, so the images you move to your computer will have color info. This can be useful for further b&w processing on your computer, as it allows you to play with color channels. But I guess I can see the point of shooting in black and white mode, as an option for some photographers. Anyway, you can't do it on the K10D. You can shoot, then convert in camera, but that of course is a pain in the neck. About one-third of my shots end up as black and white. Sometimes I know when I'm shooting that it's going to be a good photo for grayscale treatment, sometimes I don't know or I'm simply not thinking about it. I have also taken quite a few shots that I thought would work well in b&w/grayscale that, in the end, looked better in color. Anyway, I only shoot raw and I'm grateful to have all the info, including the color info. Will P.S. Done a bit more reading (including reading Sean Reid's old article about the Nikon D200) and I gather that, in fact, quite a few other dslr cameras have a raw + b&w preview option. Maybe it will be there in the K20D? Last edited by WMBP; 01-22-2008 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Addendum

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01-21-2008, 08:07 PM	#2
little laker Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,697	Welcome to Pentax Forums rrivera That is the truth, and I wouldn't worry about it. Just about every software program has a greyscale setting, which probably does a better job than the camera would anyways. I don't believe that any DSLR's have a B&W setting. You've got a great camera there, and I'm sure that you'll grow to love every feature it has.

01-21-2008, 08:11 PM	#3
rrivera Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2 Original Poster	Yeah but, you think you spend enough money on this, you would think you would have this simple feature... Not even the art programs it comes with has this to convert pics to B&W... I just looked at several comparable camaras and they have this feature...

01-21-2008, 08:30 PM	#4
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	I disagree. It is silly to take a digital picture in B&W. You can't make color from B&W, but you can do the reverse. It would be a shame to set the camera to record in B&W and then wish you had the color later. I like the way the Pentax engineers designed the B&W feature. If you want it, you get a B&W copy image of the color.

01-21-2008, 09:12 PM	#5
George Lama Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Buffalo/Rochester, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,133	It has nothing to do with the price of the camera, but the philosophy behind it. Pentax perhaps didn't feel it was a feature worth including. Considering you can do the same thing with free image manipulation programs (Irfanview and FastStone are two) and every other image manipulation program out there, it's just not an issue. I valued weather sealing, dust removal, and built-in image stabilization (SR) among a few dozen other features - there are $5000 cameras out there do not have any of that and will get toasted the first time they get rained on. However, B&W is obviously something you value and should have looked into before purchasing. Best of luck!

01-21-2008, 11:55 PM	#6
christinelandon Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 812	rrivera, from one manufacturer to the next, there are various ways of producing in-camera B&W conversions from RAW or JPEG shots. Pentax lets you save a copy as a B&W conversion from JPEG, with several "contrast filter" effects or sepia tones. But, as other respondents to your post have noted, why settle for a handful of in-camera B&W conversion presets when you can learn Ansel Adams-quality conversion techniques in Photoshop or other software, stuff that goes way beyond "Convert to Grayscale" and involves Adjustment Layers with variable opacity, Channel Mixers, Shadow/Highlight adjustments, or advanced conversion filters from nik software or other plug-in makers? Why not put a bit of your own "eye" and skill and passion into your B&W work instead of just making a menu choice in-camera? As an old wet darkroom worker, I can assure you that beautiful B&W output (on paper or via pixels) takes practice and experimentation. You need to work your vision until you learn to see in B&W and learn to translate your vision with command and confidence. No camera yet has demonstrated B&W mastery to compare with that of a skilled and sensitive photographer, IMO.

01-22-2008, 03:11 AM	#7
J.Scott Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,675	There is a way to get good B&W pictures - use film! If you had done your homework before buying the camera you would know that the K10D can't take B&W pics; but will do conversions from colour as noted above. One can simulate B&W by desaturating and using a host of software magic but the results often pale by comparison to B&W film. Cost has little to do with the matter. I feel your pain - that is why I still have and use film. :ugh: Last edited by J.Scott; 01-22-2008 at 03:18 AM.

01-22-2008, 08:27 PM	#8
Phil Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 25	I agree with J.Scott, I will never get rid of my film cameras. I really like my K10D but there is just something about a print made from a negative that digital can never match. At least not in my lifetime but then I'm an old fart. Cheers, Phil

01-22-2008, 08:42 PM	#9
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	This is interesting. I purchased a K1000 so I could use my glass to shoot B&W CN (color negative) film.. Then I realized I prefer TX. Then I realized I'd rather develop TX myself. Now I'm thinking that I'd like to make prints as well so I'm looking for an enlarger. Then of course I'd like to do large liquid emulsion prints so I need a swivel-head enlarger... Trust me, you shooting B&W is gonna get expensive

01-23-2008, 03:56 AM	#12
HGMonaro Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melb. Aust Posts: 840	As a predomiately B&W film shooter (MF and LF) if someone made a B&W only digi body I'd might buy one but it's gotta be in the Pentax LX / ME Super / etc vain (actually I'd prefer a Nikon FM2n version as I have lots of Nikkor Ais glass) and not that overweight, overpriced Kodak thing that was once available. Taking B&W pics is a different mindset than converting things your took in color and then decided might look better in B&W, and as mentioned above, there's potential to make a killer sensor without all the colour filters and processing required.

01-23-2008, 10:30 AM	#13
Duck Dodgers Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in the 24½th Century! Photos: Gallery Posts: 439	I'm not sure how an in-camera B&W could ever "know" just exactly what the photographer was after. Did he wish it to be rendered as if had used a red filter? Or an orange? What about green or blue filters? Best left to the photog in pp, IMHO.

01-23-2008, 01:16 PM	#14
mawz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 166	Originally posted by PentaxPoke I disagree. It is silly to take a digital picture in B&W. You can't make color from B&W, but you can do the reverse. It would be a shame to set the camera to record in B&W and then wish you had the color later. I like the way the Pentax engineers designed the B&W feature. If you want it, you get a B&W copy image of the color. RAW+JPEG allows for both. RAW's are inherently in colour, pairing them with a B&W JPEG works very well on cameras that have B&W shooting modes.

01-23-2008, 01:19 PM	#15
mawz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 166	Originally posted by WMBP What I thought, too. But in his review of the K10D, Sean Reid complains that it lacks black and white preview and claims that most other manufacturers have sorted this out by now. That was a surprise to me, but apparently there's something to it. The Nikon D2X seems to be one of the cameras that can save the raw file with a black and white preview. Sean Reid--who seems to be almost entirely interested in black and white--says that this helps him tell quickly whether the shot is going to come out (in b&w) as he hopes. Note that you still have the raw capture file, so the images you move to your computer will have color info. This can be useful for further b&w processing on your computer, as it allows you to play with color channels. But I guess I can see the point of shooting in black and white mode, as an option for some photographers. Anyway, you can't do it on the K10D. You can shoot, then convert in camera, but that of course is a pain in the neck. About one-third of my shots end up as black and white. Sometimes I know when I'm shooting that it's going to be a good photo for grayscale treatment, sometimes I don't know or I'm simply not thinking about it. I have also taken quite a few shots that I thought would work well in b&w/grayscale that, in the end, looked better in color. Anyway, I only shoot raw and I'm grateful to have all the info, including the color info. Will P.S. Done a bit more reading (including reading Sean Reid's old article about the Nikon D200) and I gather that, in fact, quite a few other dslr cameras have a raw + b&w preview option. Maybe it will be there in the K20D? RAW+B&W JPEG is available across the Nikon, Canon and Sony lines. The Canon setup is particularly good as you can select contrast filters as well. I haven't played enough with the Nikon or Sony B&W options to know how in-depth they are. As a fairly serious B&W shooter, this feature is one of the two things I miss on the K10D (the other being higher ISO options). Thankfully both are resolved on the K20D.