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06-20-2012, 12:33 AM   #16
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The TOP article reinforces one of my rants here: Thin DOF is for art. Thick DOF is for sales. Look at photos in general magazines -- how many are bokeh showpieces? Thin DOF is great if a subjects demands isolation, not so great otherwise.

Guess what? Super-thin DOF doesn't flatter most faces, and generally loses context. Here's today's Wisdom Of The Ancients, folks: For best modeling of human features, use about an 80/4 lens, whether the frame is APS|HF or FF or MF. That's my experience from Back In The Day when I shot (un)official portraits constantly, with all those formats.

But I digress. I love thin DOF. I exploit thin DOF. I abuse thin DOF. I should join TDA (Thin DOF'ers Anonymous). But I tell myself that I can control my addiction. It takes work. Set the camera to Av and the aperture to two stops off wide-open. Use a shorter lens. Back off a bit. Use flash. Heed the background. Stay calm. Don't think about bokeh, or space aliens.

Would I like a digicam with frame larger than APS-C? Sure. Do I need such, to get the effects I want? Not really. I can shoot film. I'll admit that a 6x6cm fine-grain negative offers a LOT of flexibility when enlarging and cropping. And if that shot was at 75/22, DOF is nicely thick (like 28/8 on APS), and details really show. THAT is the main gain with larger frames: more detail.

06-20-2012, 12:43 AM   #17
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I don't care about razor thin DoF, but I do like to have more DoF control than I get with tiny sensors ("DoF control" does not mean "always shoot at f/1.2"!). With a bigger sensor with better high ISO performance I can stop down and up the ISO to get deeper DoF (and I often do). With a small sensor I can't easily reduce the depth.

But that's me. You are free to think differently. Diversity is good!
06-20-2012, 01:24 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
I don't care about razor thin DoF, but I do like to have more DoF control than I get with tiny sensors ("DoF control" does not mean "always shoot at f/1.2"!). With a bigger sensor with better high ISO performance I can stop down and up the ISO to get deeper DoF (and I often do). With a small sensor I can't easily reduce the depth.

But that's me. You are free to think differently. Diversity is good!
+1

Often even on APSC you sometimes have to open the lens, especially wider lenses, to max aperture to get even a gentle blurring of the background with context still visible. The advantage of a larger sensor is you can get this effect with the aperture closed down a stop or two, improving IQ. I do not generally want sharp front-back. I do not generally want one eyelash in focus only. I generally want the subject in focus and the background gently OOF so I can see context but it doesn't compete with the subject, especially if it's messy/distracting. Here's an example from Bill Gekas: Bill Gekas Photography | The Gallery
06-20-2012, 01:24 AM - 1 Like   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
The original poster asks "what do we NEED a bigger sensor for"? That's always the question, and there's no correct answer for everyone...like me for example, I don't NEED a K-5. It doesn't pay my bills. I just wanted one, for many reasons, so I bought it.
I have the same question, not so much about the K5, but about full frame cameras. I'm retired and so fund my camera purchases as a hobby. Occasionally I sell some fine art pictures but it in no way fully pays for expenses. My understanding is that more professionals own APS cameras than full frame cameras due to the expense of such an investment as weighed against the net payback. My limited experience, and some reports from threads indicates that fine art purchases are down due to the almost worldwide continuing recession/unemployment.

Panasonic, Olympus and Sony all lost money last year. Canon sales were disappointing to the degree that they hired a new CEO. Don't know how well Nikon did last year, but with a potential of 4 different Nikon FF concurrent models this year, e.g. D4, D800(2), D700, D600, they sure have confidence on FF viability. So i'm probably totally wrong.

I just have a hard time believing that the present financial Return on Investment for photography work is high enough to sustain a large FF prescence in the camera market. Particularly since the APS and below cameras have never been as good as they are today. I think its going to be fascinating to see how well the FF cameras, and Nikon do.

06-20-2012, 01:45 AM   #20
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While a larger sensor will always have it's supporters, the fact is Pentax chose the APS-C route early on and developed the DA series of lenses with a smaller image circle. To go with a larger sensor would mean reworking or introducing new lenses with the resolution to meet the demands of a bigger sensor. Imo having a range of cameras with bigger sensors would cater to a small segment of Pentax users and as much as this might serve as a prestige product, given how financially challenged many Pentax users are, the take up for such a product however terrific it may be is going to be very low.
06-20-2012, 02:00 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reportage Quote
with all the talk of 35mm, would you guys be very interested if there pentax made a 645D Jr model selling at half price?
Well if it had K-mount then yes, but then essentially it is a large 4/3th sensor to the maximum size of K-mount.

The 645D is a wonderfull camera, but it is expensive to run on. I wouldn't make one that has less pixels, since for that the D800 is watching in its background.
06-20-2012, 02:14 AM   #22
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Another limitation that cannot be remedied by technology is diffraction. The maximum possible resolution is limited by diffraction. If you place more pixels on a sensor of the same size, diffraction will be noticeable at a wider aperture. So there will be a point, where we are going to need bigger sensors if we want more MegaPixel.

Last edited by Davidw0815; 06-20-2012 at 12:53 PM.
06-20-2012, 06:34 AM   #23
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Generally, thin DOF is a disadvantage not an advantage. Besides APS give very thin DOF as well if wanted.
The DOF argument is a red herring. On formats larger than 35mm thin DOF arguably becomes a problem.

We "need" larger formats to get better image quality.


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 06-20-2012 at 06:39 AM.
06-20-2012, 08:56 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
I love thin DOF. I exploit thin DOF. I abuse thin DOF. I should join TDA (Thin DOF'ers Anonymous). But I tell myself that I can control my addiction.
Now that we're at it you can show us those 55/1.2 + 1.5 TC shots you promised. (Noctilux DOF, remember?)
06-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
To go with a larger sensor would mean reworking or introducing new lenses with the resolution to meet the demands of a bigger sensor.
I would have thought a larger sensor is less demanding of a lens, if anything?

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
given how financially challenged many Pentax users are, the take up for such a product however terrific it may be is going to be very low.
Then they need to market it at non-Pentax users. The recession is reducing a lot of middle class people's expendible income. So perhaps focussing on the 'elite' end of the product line, rather than purely the high-volume low margin end, wouldn't be such a bad idea, as I suspect that market is less susceptible to financial issues and will continue buying their toys.
06-20-2012, 03:53 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
I would have thought a larger sensor is less demanding of a lens, if anything?
Tried the new D800? It's a terrific camera with stunning resolution but if you put crap glass on it, you can very quickly tell.

QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Then they need to market it at non-Pentax users. The recession is reducing a lot of middle class people's expendible income. So perhaps focussing on the 'elite' end of the product line, rather than purely the high-volume low margin end, wouldn't be such a bad idea, as I suspect that market is less susceptible to financial issues and will continue buying their toys.
Non-Pentax users who are keen on larger sensors have already invested elsewhere. Nobody is going to wait to buy a product that hasn't even been launched when there are ready offerings available. If one has already invested in Canikon, why would they abandon it and start from scratch with Pentax?

Last edited by creampuff; 06-20-2012 at 04:00 PM.
06-20-2012, 07:14 PM   #27
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I don't know about "we" but I dont need a bigger sensor. The main reason for me wanting to upgrade to Full frame was to go wider, I have now scratched the itch with 8-16. What I would like in K5 replacement is better video, audio, liveview and focus peaking. Sounds like K30, doesnt it, but I also want higher frame rate for continous shooting and better AF-C.
06-20-2012, 07:20 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by selar Quote
I don't know about "we" but I dont need a bigger sensor. The main reason for me wanting to upgrade to Full frame was to go wider, I have now scratched the itch with 8-16. What I would like in K5 replacement is better video, audio, liveview and focus peaking. Sounds like K30, doesnt it, but I also want higher frame rate for continous shooting and better AF-C.
With an 8mm on a ff, you could really get all up in someone's snot locker.
06-20-2012, 08:55 PM   #29
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True but would a 8mm on FF be affordable, and would it be rectilinear?

Giant 6mm Nikon Fisheye for $160k - Boing Boing

On sale, for $160,000
06-20-2012, 09:14 PM   #30
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Personally, the only focal length where I *really* want much less DOF is 85-100mm. I tried the 77mm, would've bought it if not for the PF and lack of quick-shift (very handy with the large AF sensor).

I have an 8-16, it's great compared to the alternatives for APS-C. I'd love to try the NIkon 14-24, though; but really, 'going wider' isn't something I need or want.

The real reason, for me, to get a larger format is the better IQ and smaller/lighter overall package.
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