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01-25-2008, 10:06 AM   #1
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K10D complaints/K20D fixes

I'm starting to see waaaaay to many complaints about the K20D and this forums doesn't need multiple complaint threads like DPReview.

I personally find it funny that when you look at the list of major complaints about the K10D and what was implemented in the K20D are being overlooked. Honestly how much of the complaining with the K10D really fixed?

Ok, I've owned a K10D since February 9th 2007, and have been on this forum for less than a year, I think, and have read thousands of complaint threads and here is what I've noticed personally from the rant sections about the K10D.

So lets look at the MAJOR complaints about the camera (K10D) based on the number of duplicate threads about it.

1) First we have the banding issues... how many banding complaint threads have there been? Too many to really go over and Pentax has now addressed this with the K20D by having a better sensor.

2)Hi ISO noise... I remember seeing dozens of threads talking about the unusable ISO1600 and that everyone that shot with ISO 1600 shouldn't. Well the K20D gives you great ISO1600 so this has been addressed. This is one of the biggest complaints given the number of threads about it.

3)What? we can only go to ISO 1600, I want to go higher! God, there were tons of threads talking about how people wanted higher ISO performance and even steps above 1600. Now the K20D fixed that and gives you ISO6400.

4)Soft Jpegs! Oh my goodness was this topic overplayed! This had to have been the number one duplicate thread over the course of the K10D history and to this day people still bring it up and the answer is always shoot in RAW. Well the K20D gives two levels of sharpening and you can get Canon sharp right out of the camera no PP. You happy yet? This is the second highest complaint based on number of threads I've seen on it.

5)PC sync port... there had to have been dozens of these cause it kept popping up. Everybody felt that this was a stupid thing not too have on this Pro level camera from Pentax. Well it's back and it have a voltage breaker on it so your camera doesn't get surged and it's weather sealed with or without the little plug in the port.

6) Complaints about SR not being up to par with Canon IS. Well there were tons of these threads and people kept comparing apples to oranges and Pentax decided to upgrade this in the K20D, they didn't have too, but they did.

7)Jpeg compression. Ok, totally different then soft jpegs, people ranted all day about how the compression of the Jpegs was too high, well now we don't have this high Jpeg compression anymore.

8)Gives us back the AF adjust and tune we unlocked in the K10D firmware. Well you got it and can store up to 20 lenses in it! This is a huge upgrade for us cause the only other cameras that have this are in the $4500 range! Oh there are tons of these threads BTW.

There are more and now lets talk to the number of threads that have to do with AF speed accuracy. I know there have been plenty of complaints about Pentax's AF speed and accuracy in the past, but compare the number of complaints to the number of complaints with soft jpegs, or banding, or ISO noise and you'll see that the majority of people truly weren't complaining about it. I don't even like the K10D AF system compared to the A700 or the Canon 30D/40D, but you know what, I still get great results shooting sports cause it's more than AF speed/accuracy. Technique beats speed any day.

After reading the K20D posts on DPR I feel that MANY of those people complaining didn't even make a hint of disapproval with the K10D AF system in the past. Maybe you should all take an educated approach and look at the most often complained about issue with the K10D was with IQ, ISO noise, banding not AF SPEED! Look at every review, including Phils Askey's review of the K10D and you can see everything scores a B or an A while image quality gets a 7.5 (C). Every review I've read says the AF is quick and accurate and even Phil says that in his review.

Sorry guys, but in all honesty you don't make any sense. You want all the these things mentioned above, but still feel the need to complain about something cause why? It's not going to change in the K20D no matter how much you complain about it now. Like I've said in the past, if you have a concern with Pentax voice it to them, they take suggestions and will do things about it if you voice our concerns to the right people.

Don't think I'm not just being a Pentax fanboy because I'm personally not satisfied with the K20D AF speed staying the same, but I've already said it before so why should I make a thread about it over and over again. I shoot wildlife, sports and the occasional quick burst of things and the K10D worked fine as long as the technique was there to support it.

Well I hope you look at some of the things I've pointed out here and maybe you'll calm down a little. I guess fixing all of those issues weren't important, but everyone sure did complain about it for over a year!

01-25-2008, 10:26 AM   #2
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do keep one thing in mind

there is such a thing as a professional troll, i would not be surprised at all if each of the individual companies had a covert department for underhard marketing

infiltrate popular forums where your target market discusses your target goods (or the goods of your competitors) and either create a persona which gains respect, then start feeing propaganda, or just go on the forum and start with propaganda without building any character

either way the word gets spread around... and like i said, i would not be surprised if thats what we are seeing here and places like DPreview.

so i think its pointless to try and battle the trolls or those people that simply complain alot, the camera isnt even out for Christs sake!!! i say dont waste your time and just let it slide.

on the other hand... judging from what YOU write, i would NOT be surprised if you were somehow funded by Pentax too.... not that i'm pointing any fingers.
01-25-2008, 10:33 AM   #3
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You have addressed a lot of what people bitched about with no right to bitch, buit you have left out some other things.

1) inability to have custom file names. Pentax's official response was they could not offer this on the K10D because it violates some irrelevant image naming standard. yet it is offered on the K20. Why can't we have this upgrade on the K10D

2) tele converter correction factor. On the K10D if you use a TC that passes focal length through from the lens to the camera, you are forced to have that focal length and not the resulting focal length including the TC for shake reduction. This is a real defect. did they fix it on the K20??? I don't see anything to suggest they have.

3) the K mount. They could easily allow for entry of minimum and maximum Apature (as they do already for focal length) and let the camera then control everything on the assumption that you set the lens to minimum all the time. this would give P-TTL flash capability to K mount lens users.

40 They allow for focus correction for multiple lenses on the K20, do they also allow for exposure correction? for me, this would be MUCH more important.
01-25-2008, 10:36 AM   #4
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I don't care to get into the fanboy vs mole vs paranoid discussion.


So I'll steer things a little more toward an actual discussion...

I like the list of fixes, but are there any (excuse my naivete) k10d complaints that weren't well fixed by the k20d?

i.e. what's left that Pentax hasn't addressed?

01-25-2008, 10:37 AM   #5
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oops, bad post timing, nm
01-25-2008, 10:40 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by jmbower Quote
I don't care to get into the fanboy vs mole vs paranoid discussion.


So I'll steer things a little more toward an actual discussion...

I like the list of fixes, but are there any (excuse my naivete) k10d complaints that weren't well fixed by the k20d?

i.e. what's left that Pentax hasn't addressed?

Chris starts off saying how hes tired of the all the negativity threads, only to start an anti-negativity thread, and a well construction one at that

i'm just pointing out that creating a well written rebutle to all the nay-sayers is a waste of time

and now this discussion will be filled with all the people perfectly happy with the new technology, some who are happy but will point out some personal discomforts, and then the naysayrs will jump in and call us all crack heads and that pentax messed up on this one.

this thread will not be any different from the rest of them,

that is all.
01-25-2008, 10:41 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
You have addressed a lot of what people bitched about with no right to bitch, buit you have left out some other things.

1) inability to have custom file names. Pentax's official response was they could not offer this on the K10D because it violates some irrelevant image naming standard. yet it is offered on the K20. Why can't we have this upgrade on the K10D

2) tele converter correction factor. On the K10D if you use a TC that passes focal length through from the lens to the camera, you are forced to have that focal length and not the resulting focal length including the TC for shake reduction. This is a real defect. did they fix it on the K20??? I don't see anything to suggest they have.

3) the K mount. They could easily allow for entry of minimum and maximum Apature (as they do already for focal length) and let the camera then control everything on the assumption that you set the lens to minimum all the time. this would give P-TTL flash capability to K mount lens users.

40 They allow for focus correction for multiple lenses on the K20, do they also allow for exposure correction? for me, this would be MUCH more important.
These issues you mention were not the hot topic for the full year of the K10D. They wish wish-list items to improve certain aspects.
01-25-2008, 10:51 AM   #8
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has there been any discussion of the probable price of the k20?

I have been toying with buying a k10d I have a k100 now, and love it, but would like a more high performance camera. With beach camera selling it, last time I looked, at lik 525 after rebate, I was tempted to upgrade.

however, it sounds like the k20 is going ot be a much larger jump over he k10 then I thought it would be. Any idea on what the price range might be?

01-25-2008, 10:51 AM   #9
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Thanks, Chris, for yet another calm voice among those who are rabidly unhappy. I guess there are people who will focus on the good and those who will focus on the bad. While I'm personally unhappy that the AF system didn't get an overhaul this time round, I know that my skills hold me back far more than the AF system :-)

Oh, I attended a talk by a pro sports/action (birding) photographer last night. He shoots Canon with big L glass and all and goes wild with lots of pan/pan and zoom type shots. He spent about 2/3rds of the evening showing good examples and talking technique. He then switched gears to show us some misses and how virtually everything looks uninteresting and unartful out of camera. He said some days he gets one keeper out of a hundred - and even the keeper needs to be cropped, brightened, saturated, contrasted or one of any number of other enhancements to get something he's happy enough to sell. For him it's technique and number and less about the camera stats...
01-25-2008, 10:52 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
These issues you mention were not the hot topic for the full year of the K10D. They wish wish-list items to improve certain aspects.
and the other's arnt wish lists also?

on the list above, except for higher ISO, which was possible but they elected NOT TO, the rest are things that really require hardware changes, while people may bitch to a certain extent there is not a lot to be done about it.

the real difference is that what I have listed are things that can easily be done, add a lot of benefit for people who actually USE the camera, and older lenses, or have multiple cameras, or have found real issues with the incorrect shake reduction csimply because they cannot have it fully correct for the teleconverter.

if pentax put a little effort into fixing simple things that can greatly help real users, you will find a lot of the other complains will die also. we will never get rid of pixle peepers unfortunately, so let them bitch
01-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #11
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jmbower, I've seen a Canadian online store post an 'estimated' price of $1399. I think Pentax's suggested retail for the K20D is $1299 US. Hopefully someone will offer it at a grand even, otherwise it'll likely be Christmas before I can contemplate an upgrade...
01-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #12
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Chris, I have a couple of questions for you. I am just curious about some small niggles of K10D.

1. K10D in Hyperprogram mode + Auto ISO does not increase ISO when Hyperprogram is switched to Tv mode (by turning one of e-dials) and shutter speed is increased. Is it fixed in K20D?

2. Wrong number of frames left when shooting into PEF. Counts them the same as DNG, although PEFs are ~45% smaller than DNG. did they fix that in K20D?

Should be easy software fixes, unfortunately Pentax decided not to fix them in K10D.
01-25-2008, 10:57 AM   #13
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yikes, higher than I thought. Understandable, but ..yikes.

I guess I'll try to figure out whether I can live with the k100d for now.
01-25-2008, 11:06 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jmbower Quote
yikes, higher than I thought. Understandable, but ..yikes.

I guess I'll try to figure out whether I can live with the k100d for now.
jezuz krist how low do you want it to be?


a 40D is ~ 1299, a D300 is ~1800, a D200 is ~1400


so if the pentax retails for 1299, its a ****ing steal!
01-25-2008, 11:28 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
These issues you mention were not the hot topic for the full year of the K10D. They wish wish-list items to improve certain aspects.
I have 2 K10Ds and never found the file naming to be an issue even when the 2 cameras produced the same file names during the same shoot.

The TC factor option would be a very nice addition its an easy software fix. This would also improve the SR system performance because currently the SR assumes the fl of the lens without the TC

Re the lens profiles that would be very nice to have but I'm not sure whether it is possible to implement without the aperture coupler.

I believe that SDM was pentax's first step towards faster AF and that we will see AF improvements in the future and hopefully more FPS as well.

I beleive that the K20D will be a success mainly on the back of its IQ and value for money this should attract a new constituency of users who will be the market for a K1D.

If they really want to chomp into C & N market share they also must complete the lens lineup.

The one thing that Pentax really knows how to do is how to build fantastic lenses. They have the designs and probably still have the tooling for all the old greats so bringing them up to date for digital should not be outside their capabilities. I personally would love to see the FA* 80-200 f/2.8, FA* 250-600 F/5.6, FA* 85 f/1.4, FA* 200 f/4 macro, the venerable A* 400 f/2.8 but with SDM AF.

EDIT: Oh yes one more thing... TCs that support SDM.. The new 200 f/2.8 + a set of 1.4x and 2x SDM TCs would make a lovely setup.

Regards
Patrick
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