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01-28-2008, 10:37 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
That being said, I bet any FF sensor will have a way to artificially crop the image to compensate for the 2 styles of lens.
Even if it does not, that can be an easy Post Process routine.


QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
That is an option I haven't thought about. You could have very well eased my apprehension with that. Thanks.
I did not mention this because it, I thought, was obvious. the D3 does this automatically, however, I think you would want a preference to turn that off because many of the DA format lenses will cover full frame over part of their operating range.

This is also true of third party lenses. My Sigma 10-20 covers from 13mm up full frame (at least that is how the view finder looks in my PZ-1)

01-28-2008, 10:39 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Again, don't mean to offend, but every Canon lens I listed there is far from junk. There is only one non-L lens in the list, and even it is an all time classic lens. Every other lens is full weather sealed, and made very high quality. One of the things I like about their lens selection is the fact that they have an F4 pro-grade and an F2.8 pro-grade lens range. The F4 range is obviously much smaller and cheaper, but the quality is still there and when shooting F4 or higher the images are almost indistinguishable. Pentax and especially Nikon should really follow suit on that one.

That said, the Pentax 50-135 DA* is by all accounts a great lens, and Canon doesn't make an exact equivalent to it. They have the 70-200mm f 2.8, but that is a longer lens, so again, apples to oranges. But that 50-135 is one of the main reasons I'm considering Pentax, I would rather have the extra stop then the extended range of the 70-200 f.4.
well...

i have an 80-200mm Tokina F4.5 from the stone age, it cost me 40 dollars, i'm satisfied with it...


its really hard to compare the lens choises of pentax and canon/nikon

canon/nikon are all about superb zooms, pentax hardly has any, but we have a pile of amazing primes, and what we also have is VR in every single one of our lenses, something that gets lost in all of this Pentax vs Rest argument


after many succesfull 1/4 and 1/6 second shots, i am a firm believer in the power of shake reduction technology, and the fact that i always have it, even on my 5 dollar Chinon lens, gives me a warm feeling all over.


INITIALY you can build a pentax system that will cost more than Canon or Nikon, but in the LONG RUN, you will see that with LBA kicking in Pentax will be much cheaper.
01-28-2008, 10:40 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
the 40D is not a competitor for the K20D

the 30D was a competitior for the K10D, the 40D was just a slightly upgraded 30D, so really the 40D was simply a better deal for those thinking of pentax/canon at the time (which is only a couple of months ago)
Well, to you guys it may not seem like a competitor, but I can assure you to people like me that are not vested in either system it most definitely is a competitor. It's well made, has a good feature set, good ergonomics, and is in the same price range as a K20D.

I have no doubt the K20D is the better camera. In-fact I don't think it will even be that close. However that is just the body, I prefer to shop for a system, not just a body. Thats why I did a"what you can get for $2000" comparison.

I obviously left off Nikon, because unless they come out with D90 then you can't get much of anything from them for under $2k. A D300 with a Tamron lens is about the best I could come up with.
01-28-2008, 10:43 AM   #19
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Of course Lowell. You can crop in PP with any digital image. Heck we all do it to some degree! I just figured they would have an auto method when the sensor sees significant light drop off.

I don't follow the other brands intricate features per model that much so I wasn't aware of the D3 having this but then it's clear it can be done and in future it will be even more sophisticated. You'll probably be able to save the lens and focal range in the data bank of the camera with the cropping % you want/need for that lens. Just like the K20D's new B/F focus adjustments that can be saved for 20 different lenses.

01-28-2008, 10:45 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Well, to you guys it may not seem like a competitor, but I can assure you to people like me that are not vested in either system it most definitely is a competitor. It's well made, has a good feature set, good ergonomics, and is in the same price range as a K20D.

I have no doubt the K20D is the better camera. In-fact I don't think it will even be that close. However that is just the body, I prefer to shop for a system, not just a body. Thats why I did a"what you can get for $2000" comparison.

I obviously left off Nikon, because unless they come out with D90 then you can't get much of anything from them for under $2k. A D300 with a Tamron lens is about the best I could come up with.
again, if you want to make a good comparison, any lens that you choose for canon and nikon HAVE to have the VR function built in. Only then can your lens (system) comparison can start to be more level'ed

and i will say this again, it seems you dont fully realize just how much of a feature SR/VR/IS is, you really have to use it for awhile in the horrible conditions its meant for to appreciate it.
01-28-2008, 10:47 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I did not mention this because it, I thought, was obvious. the D3 does this automatically, however, I think you would want a preference to turn that off because many of the DA format lenses will cover full frame over part of their operating range.
I actually haven't read much of anything about the D3. As soon as I saw the price I blocked it out like it didn't exist. Plus I'm not a fan of integrated vertical grips. I prefer the option to remove it.
01-28-2008, 10:55 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Well, to you guys it may not seem like a competitor, but I can assure you to people like me that are not vested in either system it most definitely is a competitor. It's well made, has a good feature set, good ergonomics, and is in the same price range as a K20D.

I have no doubt the K20D is the better camera. In-fact I don't think it will even be that close. However that is just the body, I prefer to shop for a system, not just a body. Thats why I did a"what you can get for $2000" comparison.

I obviously left off Nikon, because unless they come out with D90 then you can't get much of anything from them for under $2k. A D300 with a Tamron lens is about the best I could come up with.
If you are thinking system and long term, I have a question for you. Would you consider purchasing used lenses?

Pentax supports at this time, virtually every lens it ever made. Nikon only has 1 or 2 cameras that support the film lenses at all, and these must have the apature coupling at the lens mount not the viewfinder. (i forget now the actual lens names)

Canon has abandoned its lenses twice, first when they went to the bayonette mount and again when they went to AF. How they keep loyal customers who are forced to change all thier stuff I'll never know. I guess that is why they have a marketing department when pentax claim they don't know much of marketing!


For me, I have always shot pentax, purchased quality lenses from time to time, both pantax and third party, usually primes are pentax and zooms third party. and have now 5 bodies (3 film 2 digital) and 14 lenses that all still work take excellent pictures, and with only 2 exceptions, every lens works to 100% of its capability on all bodies. the exceptions are my pentax 18-35 FAJ lens, which only works on my PZ-1, and my Sigma 10-20, which will work on all bodies but does not cover a 35mm frame. This is a SYSTEM, built over years, and at times, I have had to wait a little longer for the body I want (at the time) but which has served me well.

I understand you are just starting back into SLRs, and therefore have a choice, (perhaps more than I did). I hope you decide on pentax, but what ever your choice, at this point in technology, what ever camera you select will take quality photos provided it is used correctly. In fact most complaints I see posted are either based upon unrealistic expectations or improper understanding of photography.

Pick the camera based upon build quality feel etc and you should be happy
01-28-2008, 11:06 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote

So with that in mind, when looking at the prices below can anyone make a case for me coming back to Pentax? My heart says come back, but my head says go with Canon to cover my ass.


Pentax K20D Kit, Pentax DA 18-55mm II: $1,000*
Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 SDM: $740
Pentax SMCP-FA 35mm f/2.0 AL: $300
Total: $2,040

Canon 450D: $600*
Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM: $530
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM: $300
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L: $550
Total: $1,980

Canon 40D: $815
Tamron AF 17-50mm f/2.8: $315 (cropped sensor lens, but it is a very good one and I don’t mind gambling on 1)
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM: $300
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L: $550
Total: $1,980

*K20 and Canon 450D are estimated best deal internet prices based on the history of the K10D and 400D.
I'm one of the few on this forum that agrees with you about DA lenses. Rather than buy the 50-135 get an A 35-105 on ebay. It should cost about $100-$150. Add the A 70-210 for about $150 and you have a much more complete kit. There is one thing you left out and that is shake reduction. Are any of those Canon lenses IS? All of the Pentax will have SR.


Last edited by regken; 01-28-2008 at 11:12 AM.
01-28-2008, 11:45 AM   #24
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It really isn't a leveled comparison. I don't believe you will get any of the prices listed for the bodies in 2008 unless you buy used or go for shady adressless internet stores.

Ken, I don't think somebody looking for a return to digital SLR is planning to carry 2 heavy manual focus lenses around, instead of one lighter and brighter with SDM

What you can be assured of is that the Pentax setup you listed is ahead of the other two in both image quality and features. So if you can have it for roughly the same price, go for it!

And why not the FA 50mm 1.4 instead of the 35mm?
01-28-2008, 12:06 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
If you are thinking system and long term, I have a question for you. Would you consider purchasing used lenses?
In some cases I wouldn't mind it. However where I live right now there aren't many stores around with used Pentax equipment, and I wouldn't buy used online unless it was something I really really wanted. I would want to test it out before buying.

But yes, I am fully aware of Pentax's backwards compatibility, it's mentioned in virtually every review
01-28-2008, 12:16 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
It really isn't a leveled comparison. I don't believe you will get any of the prices listed for the bodies in 2008 unless you buy used or go for shady adressless internet stores.

And why not the FA 50mm 1.4 instead of the 35mm?
Well, I really wasn't setting out to do a apples to apples comparison. It was more of what I would do for $2000 with each system, which in the case of Nikon means one body and one lens...which eliminated them all together.

As for as the 35mm vs 50mm. I'd be using my prime lens a good portion of the time, so I'd prefer it to me 50mm equivalent on an APS-C sensor...so that would be a 30-35mm lens. I just put the Canon 50mm lens up there because for now it would make a decent 80mm portrait lens on a 1.6x sensor....then eventually when upgrading to a Canon 5D it could take over its normal role as a 50mm walk around lens.

And I've actually had good luck with some of the shady stores. I ordered my G2 from one of them for $700 right after it came out while it retailed for $950+. However it was a European kit. No biggie though, bought a new power cord at radio shack, changed it from PAL to NTSC, and changed the language and I was good to go.
01-28-2008, 12:22 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Well, I really wasn't setting out to do a apples to apples comparison. It was more of what I would do for $2000 with each system, which in the case of Nikon means one body and one lens...which eliminated them all together.

As for as the 35mm vs 50mm. I'd be using my prime lens a good portion of the time, so I'd prefer it to me 50mm equivalent on an APS-C sensor...so that would be a 30-35mm lens. I just put the Canon 50mm lens up there because for now it would make a decent 80mm portrait lens on a 1.6x sensor....then eventually when upgrading to a Canon 5D it could take over its normal role as a 50mm walk around lens.

And I've actually had good luck with some of the shady stores. I ordered my G2 from one of them for $700 right after it came out while it retailed for $950+. However it was a European kit. No biggie though, bought a new power cord at radio shack, changed it from PAL to NTSC, and changed the language and I was good to go.
so you'll buy something new from a shady store

but you wont turn to ebay and people with hundreds of positive feedbacks for some used junk?

your consumer habits do not fit in with your arguments in your original thread.
01-28-2008, 12:25 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I'm one of the few on this forum that agrees with you about DA lenses. Rather than buy the 50-135 get an A 35-105 on ebay. It should cost about $100-$150. Add the A 70-210 for about $150 and you have a much more complete kit. There is one thing you left out and that is shake reduction. Are any of those Canon lenses IS? All of the Pentax will have SR.
Thanks' I'll look into that. I have to admit I haven't delved into the used lens market research as much as I should have. The three FA primes Pentax still make are all highly interesting to me though. I would probably be a happy man with nothing but the FA31 or FA43 mounted on a K20D, then used zoom for traveling or other occasions where I need range. The only issue is all three FA lenses are way up there in price and hard to justify for a hobbyist such as myself. So that leaves the used market...
01-28-2008, 12:31 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
so you'll buy something new from a shady store

but you wont turn to ebay and people with hundreds of positive feedbacks for some used junk?

your consumer habits do not fit in with your arguments in your original thread.
Used scares me, stores with great prices such as Preferred Photo do not. Besides, I'm not trying to start an argument here, so your personal opinion of me and my buying habits doesn't matter. All I wanted were reasons to use Pentax over the others. Some posters have helped out with friendly advice, then posts such as your last one have hindered.
01-28-2008, 12:40 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Used scares me, stores with great prices such as Preferred Photo do not. Besides, I'm not trying to start an argument here, so your personal opinion of me and my buying habits doesn't matter. All I wanted were reasons to use Pentax over the others. Some posters have helped out with friendly advice, then posts such as your last one have hindered.
i'm just trying to understand how it is that you make a buying decision, i'm an ex sales rep, first you try and understand what the consumer actualy wants, because alot of times what they say they want is not what they actualy need

then once you determine that you go on to offer them choices with supporting explanations.

i personaly dont want you to buy something because people say yes or no, i want you to understand what you are buying, and why you are paying X amount of dollars instead of Y.
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