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01-28-2008, 11:36 PM   #1
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A little frustrated...

at the new SLR offerings..

I'm new here on the forums, as I recently started looking for cameras and thought I was going to get a K10. Well obviously I soon came to find out Pentax was going to announce 2 new cameras this month..so I've been waiting about 2 months or so to hear about them.
They are great and all, and I really would like a K20, but thats probably going to leave me without money for lenses etc.. so now I'm reconsidering cheaper models from all brands..

Problem is, a bunch of new cheaper models are coming too..but I don't see this as a good thing. I have to decide whether or not to go with an older camera and give up new features and the benefits that the new products are going to have, namely IQ, for a better/proven platform. For example, when I started out I was considering the Sony a100, Nikon D80 etc... now the Sony a200 and Nikon D60 come along with the same resolution and whats sure to be better IQ, but they are obviously being directed towards entry level DSLR shoppers and that is not what I consider myself..even though thats the truth

They are putting the updated sensor and new features in a smaller/lighter/cheaper feeling package intended for newbies and that is a real turn off for me and others I've seen on the forum. So instead of making big advances forward, they make small but attractive updates and put them in a dumbed down package, creating a wide gap between them and a professional feeling camera, but also a seemingly better and more cost effective package than the cameras that came before them...forcing you to choose between an 'outdated' camera, a very entry level-ish camera, or spending 2 or 3 times as much for the serious one. The one exception I have seen is the Canon Xsi and of course the K20.

So whats your opinion? Has anyone else noticed this trend?

01-28-2008, 11:56 PM   #2
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K10D and don't look back!

The fact that the K20D has come out, does not at all take away from what a good camera the K10D is. If you shop smartly you can pick up a K10D body for under six grand, and still have dough for lenses. The great advantage is that in a year, when the K20D is almost as cheap, your battery grip, focusing screens, magnifier loops, will all still fit. Better yet, you'll have your K10D in three days (cause UPS 3rd day is king of shipping options), and not in May... you'll be hard pressed to find a K20D before then. The biggest bonus, is that next year when something even better comes out, and you have a big collection of lenses from all that money you saved, you can justify the purchase of the new camera that will make the K20D look old school.
01-28-2008, 11:59 PM   #3
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p.s.

all those other camera makers may have cameras in a similar $ range... but none of them will be able to touch the lineup of glass at cost. When you buy an SLR you're committing to a system. Taken as a whole, you can't beat many of the advantages you'll get here!
01-29-2008, 12:02 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by proudtoshootpentax Quote
The fact that the K20D has come out, does not at all take away from what a good camera the K10D is. If you shop smartly you can pick up a K10D body for under six grand, and still have dough for lenses. The great advantage is that in a year, when the K20D is almost as cheap, your battery grip, focusing screens, magnifier loops, will all still fit. Better yet, you'll have your K10D in three days (cause UPS 3rd day is king of shipping options), and not in May... you'll be hard pressed to find a K20D before then. The biggest bonus, is that next year when something even better comes out, and you have a big collection of lenses from all that money you saved, you can justify the purchase of the new camera that will make the K20D look old school.
I agree (except the price will be closer to six hundred than "six grand") The K10d is outstanding, and the k20d will be as well I'm sure, but introduced at double the price, and improvements are incremental not revolutionary, and it won't be available in the US until April. If you act quickly, you can still get the $100 rebate on the k10d until Jan 31. $699 - $100 rebate. That is such an unbelievable bargain for this camera!

I took a hard look at those other cameras you suggested, but they couldn't touch the k10d. There will always be a new camera coming out if you wait, so don't get into that trap. The k10d could keep you happy for a very long time.


Last edited by PentaxPoke; 01-29-2008 at 12:08 AM.
01-29-2008, 12:24 AM   #5
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I've been playing with my K100D and my new Sigma SD14 for a week now. And comparing photographs under similar conditions.
And I've discovered that there isn't enough difference between a 6mp camera and a 14mp camera to bother upgrading. Unless you plan on printing off images bigger than 10" x 15"

And the difference between the K10D and the K20 is even smaller.

As a result I don't feel that it's worth waiting for the new models. If you want a camera now the K10 is probably the best choice out there for the price.
01-29-2008, 12:31 AM   #6
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Yeah I hear you, I took a look at all those others too and decided on the K10...now I have to consider the updated versions of all those models next to the same K10..

But yeah I'm still leaning towards it anyways.
01-29-2008, 12:33 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I agree (except the price will be closer to six hundred than "six grand") ...
oops!! my bad
01-29-2008, 02:42 AM   #8
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FYI, a sort of rant follows - I got midway through writing it before I reallized that. Nobody is forcing you to read this post, so don't if you are tired of the recent rants by other disappointed pentaxians concerning the new lineup. And yes, I like good cheese with a good whine.








I can't really advise you on what to do with your money. In fact I am in a similar situation after my K10, 3 lenses, a teleconverter, pelican case and tripod, etc were stolen from the trunk of my car a couple weeks ago.

I too was very much looking forward to the K20 announcement. I was hoping that Pentax would come through for me in addressing some of the short-falls of the K10. I won't list them all here as they've been bandied about countless times in recent days.

Thus - I too am frusterated.

I think a large part of what we pay for when we buy a camera is that we pay the company NOT to take features out. The concept of the K200 is a bit of a joke to me. The K10 at the end of it's production was costing about the same as the K200 new, yet from an ergonomic/ease of use standpoint, it's a hell of a lot more camera. By taking out things like the front dial, Pentax can decrease their _physical_ production costs while maintaining the price point, thus increasing profit at the expense of the consumer. And woopdeedoo on the incremental update to a 2.7 inch screen with it's still low pixel/dot count.

The K20d is more what I was looking at.... but I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the upgrade. Sure it supposed to have better image quality - but I'm not percieving much of that in the photo's I'm seeing. Granted, I've only seen about 50 or so photographs thus far. Oooh it's got a 14mp cmos sensor! As far as I can tell, the wonder of the K20D isn't that it's a better image per se, it's that they could up the photoreceptor density of an APS-C sensor without substantially decreasing the image quality. The sky/blue & orange tonality MIGHT be a little richer/smoother - but not by much. And at the end of the day, it's still an APS-C frame. In the photos I've seen, I don't see the 14mp resolving much more detail than the 10mp one.

Not to mention that the price point of the K20 just isn't as compelling as the K10 was.

Software features are one area where the K200 and K20 could easily share features and no change in production costs. What does it cost per unit for them to use the K20 software technology in the K200 camera?

Take my feelings about the K200 being dumbed down, and the K20 being less dumbed down, along with the pentax rep hinting at a K1D next year, i have to wonder if they deliberately left features out of the K20d to leave room for a possible K1 market.


The point of all the above is not just to vent my frusterations about the new lineup (though that was part of it) but also to voice an opinion on what I perceive to be a questionable business practice.

Meanwhile, I'm left deciding what to do - buy another K10d (which I was happy with but not astounded by), save up and pony out for the k20d (I have doubts about it's value) or jump ship - something I'd really like to avoid. Or, I guess I could wait for a year and half for a K1d that may or may not disappoint.

Good luck with your decision!

Frank.

Ps. If you are a strobist or especially a fashion photographer, or shoot mostly macro still lifes, the K20 might be a little more compelling for you.

01-29-2008, 03:19 AM   #9
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Hi Oceanic,

I have a K10D and love it. I love it so much I'd like to tell you to go and get one. But I'm not.

The only sound advice I can give you is go out and play; find a nice retailer that holds all models you are interested in, and play. Play around, see what you like and dislike in each model. I might upset a few people here, but in my opinion a camera that's easy to use and operate will end up giving you more pleasure and better pictures than a "better" (?) camera that you're fighting with.

Again, pixel-peepers might disagree, but I think there is very little between the different cameras. Lenses are, of course, another story, but for each camera there's plenty of good lenses.

In the end you might regret saving a few bucks and have your camera gathering dust because it doesn't work for you...

So, my 2 c: play, and get the camera you like, the one that fits your hands and way of thinking...

Good luck!
01-29-2008, 04:43 AM   #10
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I'm getting sick of these threads. I shouldn't even post this and need to stop opening these threads. I'll piss some people off with this but I don't want this forum to become DPReview.
I am not directing this at any particular poster but the general tone of many new threads and posts that all follow the same theme.

To begin with I can guarantee that these cameras will exceed the skills of the owner/user for years to come, myself included.

Have any of the whiners ever shot film? Do you know how to use a manual light meter? What it's like to wait a week to see if your shots were any good? How to use a camera that has no automation and can work without batteries because it has no electronics to speak of.

Geez I'm sick of this crap about how bad the K10D was and how the K20D is not much of an upgrade.

Having shot film for nearly 25 years and now a few years with digital, I'm ecstatic about both cameras and the huge leaps forward from what I had to do to take one properly exposed image 5-10 years ago.

If you don't like the K10D and the new offerings don't interest you much then go buy a Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus or whatever camera makes you happy.

The camera is only a tool and if you expect it to take the pictures for you, well maybe you should stick to video games. Learn how to shoot with whatever brand makes you happy.

"I'm just not seeing the upgrade. Sure it supposed to have better image quality" Huh??? What th hell is that supposed to mean? Cameras take pictures the last time I checked. If you want to use it as a toaster or an iPod, then it will most likely be a disappointment. Lots of photographers have made a living or taken award winning shots with cameras that had and have far fewer features. Also if this is all about buffer sizes and shooting like a machine gunner, then you need to learn some technique.

If you want the K200D to do what the K20D can, then what's the point of selling 2 bodies? If the K20D sucks so much, then what's the point of building any bodies?

These types of threads are robbing Rice High of a job. He looks like a Pentax supporter compared to many of the comments I've heard lately.

Rant done.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 01-29-2008 at 05:24 AM.
01-29-2008, 04:59 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oceanic Quote
Yeah I hear you, I took a look at all those others too and decided on the K10...now I have to consider the updated versions of all those models next to the same K10..

But yeah I'm still leaning towards it anyways.
I would not be put off by the upcoming (announced but not released) cameras.

It is a fact of life these days that there will always be newer more advanced higer performance modles available, usually for much less price.


The point you need to consier here, and you are aware of it, is your total budget, and lenses.

Lenses will keep, they do not come out year after year with new hugely improved modles. There are very incremental changes, newer glass with better optical qualities, and slightly more advanced formulas, but much of the physics was defined a very long time ago, and lenses made in the past perform extrremely well even on digital cameras.

As a result, getting a K10D now, at rock bottom prices and a few good lenses will get you going, and possibly serve your photographic needs for many years. In the end, what will become of the K10D in your collection? You will either sell it, pass it on to a family member or keep it as a back up body, but will you exhaust all your photographic capabilities between now and the K10D? Not unless you shoot several hundred thousand frames in the next 6 months, or have no capabilities to exhaust and fail to pick up any along the way.
01-29-2008, 05:01 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
These types of threads are robbing Rice High of a job. He looks like a Pentax supporter compared to many of the comments I've heard lately.

Rant done.
Peter that is quite a compliment for RH

See my post also, I wholly agree.
01-29-2008, 06:05 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Having shot film for nearly 25 years and now a few years with digital, I'm ecstatic about both cameras and the huge leaps forward from what I had to do to take one properly exposed image 5-10 years ago.
I scoff...I scoff at your 25 twenty years.

Sonny, when I started, we had Kodachrome. Period. ASA 25 (none of that fancy ISO stuff you kids have today). ASA 25 slide film with 1/2 stop latitude. And we liked it. Mainly 'cause there wasn't anything else (well, B&W Tri-X and Plus-X, but I'm talking color, here). Then, as time went by by (and the dinosaurs died out), there were the E-6 films, like Ektachrome with it's ASA 160 rating. Later that was bumped up to 400; we were amazed. But, what if you had to shoot outside and you had 400 loaded? So we started rewinding film and leaving the tail out, and marking the canister so we knew how many shots we had taken so we could come back to that roll. Now you young whippersnappers have auto-ISO this, and auto-compensation that, 207-segment metering, and still I hear the plaintive cry go out, "but it doesn't auto-focus in the dark!" "It only goes to ISO 1600 (3200) (6400)!" (switchable on-the-fly, no less) "How can I take pictures with this old thing?"

*Sigh*

Kids these days.

01-29-2008, 06:33 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Duck Dodgers Quote
I scoff...I scoff at your 25 twenty years.

Sonny, when I started, we had Kodachrome. Period. ASA 25 (none of that fancy ISO stuff you kids have today). ASA 25 slide film with 1/2 stop latitude. And we liked it. Mainly 'cause there wasn't anything else (well, B&W Tri-X and Plus-X, but I'm talking color, here). Then, as time went by by (and the dinosaurs died out), there were the E-6 films, like Ektachrome with it's ASA 160 rating. Later that was bumped up to 400; we were amazed. But, what if you had to shoot outside and you had 400 loaded? So we started rewinding film and leaving the tail out, and marking the canister so we knew how many shots we had taken so we could come back to that roll. Now you young whippersnappers have auto-ISO this, and auto-compensation that, 207-segment metering, and still I hear the plaintive cry go out, "but it doesn't auto-focus in the dark!" "It only goes to ISO 1600 (3200) (6400)!" (switchable on-the-fly, no less) "How can I take pictures with this old thing?"

*Sigh*

Kids these days.


From your response, I take it "senior member" has special significance for you.

It seems you have survived the extinction of the dinosaurs and evolved, as the photo industry has.

I share your views, and comment every chance I can about how good the photos can be, grainy as they are, at high ISO even with my digital dinosaurs the *istD. You are right, there is nothing to complain about, and what you see is that people are more driven today by trying to have the latest of everything, and ignore the fact that what they have already is far superior to their needs.

BTW, didn't you know that there was never a need to rewind film, and leave the tail out. it was all a matter of getting a second body?
01-29-2008, 07:17 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Duck Dodgers Quote
I scoff...I scoff at your 25 twenty years.

Sonny, when I started, we had Kodachrome.
I remember those days as well and know the Paul Simon song. My point exactly. As Lowell said I carried 2 cameras with different film speeds (K64 and ASA 200) just so as not to loose the tail or damage the film. Nothing like setting up the tripod, taking a hand held meter reading or 2 and taking a couple of bracketed exposures. 2 shots would take 10-15 minutes to set up. Of course several of those shots were ruined when a T Rex or Triceratops blocked the view at the wrong moment.
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