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01-31-2008, 04:41 PM   #1
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Tungsten light option k100d super problem?

Using flash and the Tungsten light WB (indoor) gave me a blue cast (right) over the photo. It sholuld reduce a red cast of the bulb light because the K is about 2800. Since Flash has the same K as daylight, abt.5000 I can't explain the behaviour of the Tungsten Light option. If I use WB Flash everything is OK. Also when I use Tungsten Light and a low shuttertime 0,5sec/f 4.5 (left)



Thanks for any advices.

01-31-2008, 06:40 PM   #2
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I get the same problem if I accidentally leave it on Tungsten WB and take a picture in broad daylight.
If you are using the flash in slow-speed-synch mode (looks like it from the first photo) the Tungsten WB will over-correct against the part of the illuminination coming from the flash light, since that is almost like daylight. So you end up with a bluish picture.

The first picture looks natural enough, even if it looks kind of reddish.
That's the whole reason for using flash in slow-speed-synch , to capture the ambient light, right ? If this was a sunset scene, you would want the beautiful sunset colours to appear in the background

Otherwise I would go straight for standard flash at 1/80 or 1/180 sec, and the flash will drown out most of the ambient light, and you can use Auto WB, Daylight or Flash WB.

If the available light is purely incandescent or halogen lighting (reddish to yellowish colour) and no flash used, Tungsten WB works very well to prevent a red cast to the photo.
01-31-2008, 07:05 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote
Using flash and the Tungsten light WB (indoor) gave me a blue cast (right) over the photo. It sholuld reduce a red cast of the bulb light because the K is about 2800. Since Flash has the same K as daylight, abt.5000 I can't explain the behaviour of the Tungsten Light option. If I use WB Flash everything is OK. Also when I use Tungsten Light and a low shuttertime 0,5sec/f 4.5 (left)

Most flash units are powerful enough to overpower standard room lights, resulting in images primarily dominated by the flash output instead of the room lights. Flash lighting usually results in a bluish tint to images, while tungsten lighting typically results in a reddish tint. The flash white balance setting decreases sensitivity to blue and increases sensitivity to red in an effort to remove the excess bluish tint from scenes lit by flash lighting. The tungsten WB setting decreases sensitivity to red and increases sensitivity to blue in an attempt to remove the excess reddish tint from scenes lit by tungsten lighting. Green may also be adjusted a bit as well in either WB mode.

With that in mind, if you use the tungsten WB setting (adding blue & reducing red) to photograph a scene already having a bluish tint from the output of a flash, the end results will obviously be an image with a very strong bluish tint. The proper procedure is to use the flash WB setting (adding red & reducing blue) with scenes dominated by the output from a flash unit and the tungsten WB setting with scenes lit mainly by tungsten lighting.

stewart


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Last edited by stewart_photo; 01-31-2008 at 07:11 PM.
02-02-2008, 03:43 PM   #4
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Thanks. What do you mean with "scene"The "scene"photographed in general of the "scene"mode. Because that last one I never use. Only Tv,Av and M

The strangest thing is that with my prosumer camera's this problem never occurred

And where do I find the slow sync flash? The camera has not to many flash modes, 4 to be exact. Of whic two are gray most of the time

02-02-2008, 04:04 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote

The strangest thing is that with my prosumer camera's this problem never occurred
That's very weird - mainly because this is not a "problem". The color temperature of the flash is much higher than Tungsten.

You are setting the balance to 2800k, and using a 5000k light (flash), that will always give you a blue picture. The thing is, you can't balance for two different lights - choose the main one and you'll have to handle the color cast of the other. There is nothing a camera can do about mixed lighting, it's up to you to handle it.
02-02-2008, 04:37 PM   #6
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I have found that just setting your white balance to flash indoors works very well. Try that and see how it looks. Here is an example, not the best, but skin tones, and the dress are spot on.

02-04-2008, 09:22 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
That's very weird - mainly because this is not a "problem". The color temperature of the flash is much higher than Tungsten.

You are setting the balance to 2800k, and using a 5000k light (flash), that will always give you a blue picture. The thing is, you can't balance for two different lights - choose the main one and you'll have to handle the color cast of the other. There is nothing a camera can do about mixed lighting, it's up to you to handle it.
Right. So basically it is the sum of 2800K and 5000K on top of it which cause the bluish?
But indoor you often need a flash, right? So better use the Flash WB. But when do you use the Tungsten. You hardly use it outdoor? And as I wrote. I can use the Tungsten without any flash indoor when I use a 0.5 sec shutter
02-06-2008, 03:24 PM   #8
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Nevertheless. Please read the first part here below the "White Balance"and see the pics below it. Tungsten plus Flash are used. Not blue.

I wonder if the color filter can get ridd of the blue.


Last edited by demoleman; 02-06-2008 at 03:29 PM.
02-06-2008, 03:44 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote
Nevertheless. Please read the first part here below the "White Balance"and see the pics below it. Tungsten plus Flash are used. Not blue.

I wonder if the color filter can get ridd of the blue.
To remove all colour problems, especially tungsten you can use colour correction gels that you place over your flash head. Basically set the camera to the WB of the room and added the appropriate gel to match the colour of the room. I keep CTO green, CTO red, CTO blue, and amber gels with me at all times, but hardly use them
02-06-2008, 04:45 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote
Right. So basically it is the sum of 2800K and 5000K on top of it which cause the bluish?
But indoor you often need a flash, right? So better use the Flash WB. But when do you use the Tungsten. You hardly use it outdoor? And as I wrote. I can use the Tungsten without any flash indoor when I use a 0.5 sec shutter
QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote
Nevertheless. Please read the first part here below the "White Balance"and see the pics below it. Tungsten plus Flash are used. Not blue.

I wonder if the color filter can get ridd of the blue.
Sorry, are you referring to the baby picture on the right? Your link doesn't refers to a specific point on the page. That shot (the baby) was flash + daylight, not tungsten. If a shot with flash is not blue, the balance is set to flash, not tugnsten. Everytime you set the balance to tungsten, flash light or daylight WILL be blue, regardless of the circunstances.

I think you're missing the basics of color temperature. This should clarify things for you: Color temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The different lights (tungsten and flash) don't mix completely - you can't fix both at the same time. It's like having two targets at different heights, you can't hit both with a single shot.
02-07-2008, 02:47 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by demoleman Quote
Right. So basically it is the sum of 2800K and 5000K on top of it which cause the bluish? But indoor you often need a flash, right? So better use the Flash WB. But when do you use the Tungsten. You hardly use it outdoor? And as I wrote. I can use the Tungsten without any flash indoor when I use a 0.5 sec shutter

You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be, making wrong assumptions along the way. Go back to the first sentence in my previous post, "Most flash units are powerful enough to overpower standard room lights, resulting in images primarily dominated by the flash output instead of the room lights." If the flash overpowers the room lighting, the room lighting doesn't matter anymore. In other words, in most cases, don't worry about the secondary light source. The camera's WB is set for the strongest, dominate, light source when the image is recorded. So, lets simplify all this down:

- A room with normal lighting & no flash = Tungsten White Balance.
- A room with normal lighting & flash = Flash White Balance.
- A room with normal lighting but stronger window sunlight = Daylight White Balance.
- A room with fluorescent lighting & no flash = Fluorescent White Balance.
- A room with fluorescent lighting & flash = Flash White Balance.
- A room with fluorescent lighting but stronger window sunlight = Daylight White Balance.
- and so on through the other WB options.

Remember, in each case, we're talking about the dominate (strongest) light at the moment of exposure. A room may be lit with tungsten light, but that doesn't matter if a flash is used for the exposure. Again , since the flash will usually dominate over the tungsten lighting, the flash WB is used instead. Anyway, these settings will provide reasonably acceptable images in most cases.

Of course, there are always exceptions. For example, if you're attempting to balance the existing (ambient) light source with flash, other tactics are employed. However, just stick with the basics for now. As you learn more, those tactics will become more obvious.

stewart
02-08-2008, 03:09 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be, making wrong assumptions along the way.
stewart
But there are you to help me out Thanks for xplaning
02-15-2008, 07:31 AM   #13
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Hi! I'm new to the forums and to slrs. I bought a k100d super last month because it was supposed to be the easiest dslr to start with. I have been struggling with just understanding the basics.

One of my greatest frustrations has been with white balance. The auto white balance setting just doesn't seem to work, or maybe it just doesn't work as well as the one on my point and shoot. Stewart's post has been very helpful. I've also purchased the white balance lens filter cap that someone mentioned in another thread.

I'm so happy that I found and joined pentaxforums!
02-16-2008, 06:00 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jimgar Quote
Hi! I'm new to the forums and to slrs. I bought a k100d super last month because it was supposed to be the easiest dslr to start with. I have been struggling with just understanding the basics.

One of my greatest frustrations has been with white balance. The auto white balance setting just doesn't seem to work, or maybe it just doesn't work as well as the one on my point and shoot. Stewart's post has been very helpful. I've also purchased the white balance lens filter cap that someone mentioned in another thread.

I'm so happy that I found and joined pentaxforums!
Where can I get such a filter and what is it for? Yeah Stewards post was very helpful
02-16-2008, 07:51 AM   #15
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I found out about the cap in this thread:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/13678-cheap-white-balance-cap.html

It's still out there on ebay for $5 shipping included.
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