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01-25-2013, 01:07 PM   #46
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Wow

i didn't expect the responses to my little rant here but I can respect them. What I just do not understand however is all this fuss over 1/3 of a stop. After all, the variability of lenses in light transmission can be more than that.

Now what I will point out is that it is not just max sync speed, because for me, that is not an issue really, what is more important is the flash system we have, and how far it lags behind overall. Note that we are discussing here max sync speed with leading curtain sync, but that it is cut to 1/90 for trailing curtain, where as the competition is not. now we are looking at 1 1/3 stops and this can, I agree be an issue. but that is not as much an issue of shutter as it is of a flash with lower light intensity but longer duration.

Compare the AF500FTZ and AF540FGZ flashes and how they perform on a DSLR, from the image sharpness I see out of my old AF500FTZ on my *istD compared to the same lens when using the AF540FGZ, I see more influence of shake in the shots with the 540, to me this suggests that the flash duration is longer for the same integrated light output. also there is a thread somewhere with the AF540FGZ showing at full power a darkening of the bottom of the image at maximum sync speed, this is not apparent with the AF500FTZ again suggesting that the older AF500FTZ has a shorter duration. note, the AF500FTZ supported 1/250 sync speed on the PZ1.

aside from these arguments, where people are looking for higher sync speeds, the other issue impacting this is the reluctance to offer cameras with lower ISO ratings. if you could shoot at ISO25 for example, this would solve all problems because it would give you 2 additional stops, so the 1/3 stop difference would be irrelevant. My solution if and when I need ultra low ISO, and high sync speed may not be popular, but is available to me, is simply put 25 ISO film in my PZ-1.

that also solves the other issue because by default i get full frame

01-28-2013, 09:08 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlacouture Quote
I never really understood this 1/250 fad... The only practical case I see is when you really have to balance a high ambient at base ISO, without closing your aperture further, and without using HSS.

And in this case, it means you work in plenty of light, so using a ND filter is possible... A simple ND2 will lead you into 1/360 territory (but, granted, it will cost you some flash power).

So, faced with this choice, well, I think I would rather spend some more dollars on a 2nd light source to compensate for the light loss, rather than wait for a higher sync speed...

EDIT: one thing that would sell like hot cakes : LCD filters!
Imagine a ND-like filter with a programmable "shutter" duration...
Wired to the flash hot-shoe, you enter the desired duration, it darkens at the end of the P-TTL communication and lighten on the flash signal, for the desired amount of time only...
Ta-daaaa, instant 1/1000 (or whatever!) shutter speed, compatible with any lens/body combo, and cheap!!!
Anyone for a kickstarter campaign?
LCD shutters... Do you know, in the late 80's, Sinar had an LCD shutter for their large format cameras.. This very clever idea disappeared without a trace.. Maybe it was the expense of LCD's of about 100mm at the time, but now they cost nothing and this might have been one of those overlooked technologies, that could now take dslr's to the next level and negate all these shutter/flash woes?

Dayle
01-30-2013, 10:30 AM   #48
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LCD shutters are still here but not used in camera's
Plane shutters are still able to produce faster shutter speeds.


As for Pentax, one digital DSLR can do 1/500 with 2 lenses.
01-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
aside from these arguments, where people are looking for higher sync speeds, the other issue impacting this is the reluctance to offer cameras with lower ISO ratings. if you could shoot at ISO25 for example, this would solve all problems because it would give you 2 additional stops, so the 1/3 stop difference would be irrelevant. My solution if and when I need ultra low ISO, and high sync speed may not be popular, but is available to me, is simply put 25 ISO film in my PZ-1.
just use an ND filter.

But ND filter or ISO does not solve the reason why we want a faster shutter speed.
We want faster shutterspeed to low the ambient light while keeping the flash light at the same level.
If you use lower ISO or a ND filter then you're also cutting the flash light so the balance remain the same.

01-30-2013, 11:00 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
if you want the ultimate in sync speed, get a 6x7 with a leaf shutter lens.
My mirrorless camera does 1/4000 flash sync.
01-30-2013, 01:10 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
just use an ND filter.

But ND filter or ISO does not solve the reason why we want a faster shutter speed.
We want faster shutterspeed to low the ambient light while keeping the flash light at the same level.
If you use lower ISO or a ND filter then you're also cutting the flash light so the balance remain the same.
but is the 1/3 stop really relevant? that is the whole focus of the discussion. you seem to be focused on the fact that everything else is fixed except shutter speed. you can increase clearly the flash intensity, and lower the ISO to get to the same balance so it does not really matter in that case. After all we are talking about the relative contribution of ambient light to flash. I will assume for artistic reasons the aperture setting is off limits, therefore, in terms of degrees of freedom, while leaving aperture where it is, we have the following
- iso
- flash intensity/duration
- sync speed
- ND filter
- high speed sync

you can;t be at the limit of all of these unless you are shooting wide open with a very fast lens, in daylight, and at a distance that is so far from the subject that you cannot reach with your flash in high speed sync mode, and therefore, probably wasting your time any way. go back to the beginning, how can 1/3 stop be a sever disadvantage relative to the competition.

the truth is, it does not matter, other than in specmanship. it is somewhat similar to arguing whether a 6, 10, 14, or 16 mp will produce a better 4x6 print, when in reality all you need is about 2 MP.

the other points such as increasing trailing curtain sync to 1/180 as opposed to 1/90, and getting a shorter duration brighter flash are much more important than arguing over 1/3 of a stop
01-30-2013, 01:25 PM   #52
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The Pentax MX has a Focal Plane flash trigger in addition to the X hotshoe.

It must have been lively in those days with those big flash bulbs going off.
01-30-2013, 02:24 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
just use an ND filter.

But ND filter or ISO does not solve the reason why we want a faster shutter speed.
We want faster shutterspeed to low the ambient light while keeping the flash light at the same level.
If you use lower ISO or a ND filter then you're also cutting the flash light so the balance remain the same.
But that is only true if you keep the flash power the same relative to the ambient. You can increase flash power by using a more powerful flash (or studio strobe), using more speedlights, moving the speedlight(s) closer to the subject (if not already as close as possible), and/or not using a modifier (if using one).

Certainly, a faster sync speed is preferable in most cases to a lower ISO and/or ND filter especially for some subjects, but it is not the only solution, and use of an ND filter can be a viable alternative. As I documented in post #43, even a single speedlight can completely overpower the midday sun (with the help of an ND filter and the use of a small subject).

Would I like to have a max sync speed of 1/250 or higher? You bet, but there are workarounds.

01-30-2013, 02:34 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
but is the 1/3 stop really relevant?
As has been pointed out, the difference between 1/180 and 1/250 is 1/2 stop, not 1/3 stop. I don't disagree with the case you are trying to make, (though I do think a faster max sync speed is beneficial) but I think you should get your math right in presenting your case.
01-31-2013, 05:42 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
but is the 1/3 stop really relevant? that is the whole focus of the discussion. you seem to be focused on the fact that everything else is fixed except shutter speed. you can increase clearly the flash intensity, and lower the ISO to get to the same balance so it does not really matter in that case. After all we are talking about the relative contribution of ambient light to flash. I will assume for artistic reasons the aperture setting is off limits, therefore, in terms of degrees of freedom, while leaving aperture where it is, we have the following
- iso
- flash intensity/duration
- sync speed
- ND filter
- high speed sync

you can;t be at the limit of all of these unless you are shooting wide open with a very fast lens, in daylight, and at a distance that is so far from the subject that you cannot reach with your flash in high speed sync mode, and therefore, probably wasting your time any way. go back to the beginning, how can 1/3 stop be a sever disadvantage relative to the competition.
Sorry but i don't know what kind of flashes you use outside?
Not every one has a Elinchrom Ranger of 1100ws or studio flash on a power generator.
Back to reaility most of us should be happy to get 400ws out of their flash on full power, you've a recycle time of 2 seconds and maybe 100 flashes on a charge.
Now if you can lower that to 200ws, recycle time would be 1 second and you get 200 out of a charge.
That is if you are able to overpower the sun with those 400ws to begin with...
So yes even 1/3th of a stop can make a difference if you can't get more flashlight out fo your units.

Pocket wizard allows you to trigger by 3 or 4 stops faster, but not with Pentax since they disable the hotshoe....
With canon or nikon you can get a full stop faster on his own but you need to crop away the dark band you get by the shutter at the end. But you then shoot wide and crop later, you get less pixels but the light is wat you want.
01-31-2013, 08:05 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
LCD shutters are still here but not used in camera's
Plane shutters are still able to produce faster shutter speeds.


As for Pentax, one digital DSLR can do 1/500 with 2 lenses.
Fair play on the LCD shutter.. I understand. I used to use Norman flash outside for fashion, as a fill in, and Metz 45ct1 (I think it was, sometimes, instead),I always got the shot and never needed anything higher than a 60th of a second. But thats my personal experience, I never had to photograph a bullet leaving a barrel so, high shutter/flash speed was never an issue. However I did show a student how to take a picture of a lightbulb being smashed one time... Think I used a Metz set at minimum (1/30000th of a second I think it worked out as) and a shutter speed of mmmm, let me guess 1/60th of a second.. ;-) just saying. Work around what you've got. Don't let it work around you..
01-31-2013, 08:20 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by DayleT Quote
Fair play on the LCD shutter.. I understand. I used to use Norman flash outside for fashion, as a fill in, and Metz 45ct1 (I think it was, sometimes, instead),I always got the shot and never needed anything higher than a 60th of a second. But thats my personal experience, I never had to photograph a bullet leaving a barrel so, high shutter/flash speed was never an issue. However I did show a student how to take a picture of a lightbulb being smashed one time... Think I used a Metz set at minimum (1/30000th of a second I think it worked out as) and a shutter speed of mmmm, let me guess 1/60th of a second.. ;-) just saying. Work around what you've got. Don't let it work around you..
Secondly, I have never come across a situation where the flash cannot completely drown out the background,(even a relatively small flash), so I don't really know wher this thread is going other than moaning that Pentax high sync speed is not what CaNikons is?
01-31-2013, 09:13 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by DayleT Quote
Secondly, I have never come across a situation where the flash cannot completely drown out the background,(even a relatively small flash), so I don't really know wher this thread is going other than moaning that Pentax high sync speed is not what CaNikons is?
Well that's the reason why you want higher sync speeds, not for freezing things like you're suggesting earlier.

You want higher sync speed so you can lower the daylight while using a flash, and still use a wide aperture or without having to use the flash at full power.

You can certainly manage with 1/180 outside but a bit more would be welcome.
Certainly if you plan to use the flash light as your main light.


ps. LCD shutter these days can go down to 1/1000 and that's the full shutter area so that is also your sync speed.
I doubt we will see them on smaller sensored camera soon but on a medium format they would make sense actually.
It removes a fairly big moving part with a static part meaning less camera shake.
With medium format you also useally shoot with higher f-numbers so the slightly slower max shutter speed is not that much of a problem.
02-01-2013, 02:51 AM   #59
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I will also point out for many studio photographers there isn't much point in aiming for synch speed above 1/500th for the simple reasons that at 1:1 power most studio strobes are at their fastest but things go downhill once you start to throttle the power down. The t.5 spec (an "engineering" number which tells you how to get at least half the power from the flash) and multiply by 3 to get the t.1 spec, which tells you how much "motion stopping" power the flash has.

Here is a small list of the t.1 times ( the most relevant to motion stopping) for popular studio flash monobloc heads at 1:1 power:

  • 1/966 Bowens Gemini 500 Pro
  • 1/883 Profoto D1
  • 1/683 Elinchrom Style RX 600
  • 1/600 White Lightning X1600
  • 1/533 Paul Buff Einstein 640- (IGBT flash - flashes using this technology actually get faster at lower power levels)
  • 1/520 Elinchrom BX 500Ri
  • 1/266 Elinchrom D-Lite it 400
So if you really,really want synch speeds over 1/2000th for photography, all I can say is that you are probably better off getting some really powerful HMI lights, and then of course you get problems with radio triggers at high shutter speeds - despite what Pocketwizards say, I have had problems getting mine to synch consistently at speeds of 1/1000th and faster.
02-01-2013, 06:55 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
So if you really,really want synch speeds over 1/2000th for photography, all I can say is that you are probably better off getting some really powerful HMI lights, and then of course you get problems with radio triggers at high shutter speeds - despite what Pocketwizards say, I have had problems getting mine to synch consistently at speeds of 1/1000th and faster.
But like you say that is for in the studio and since you can shoot in the dark in the studio, the ambient light and so the shutter speed is no problem there.

It's when your only control over the ambient light is the camera that shutter speed becomes important.
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