Originally posted by *isteve Well to be fair I was not comparing any models specifically, but unless Nikon have done something miraculous with the laws of physics, I cant see how it would have resolution superior to a 5D or any of the 12+MP APS cameras.
It does not per se, but it does have a greater DR, saw a link posted from a DR test, that claimed it to be equal to the S5 from fuji. I will try to track down the link if you want me to?
Originally posted by *isteve I am sure it will have less noise than an APSC sensor, but only at higher ISO and the number of stops may not be as great as you think compared to the K20D. We will see on this one. But this comes down to the question of "how much is an extra stop of noise worth"?
That is the true question and since my Nikon system is part of a contract, as a customer requirement, to me it was worth it
Originally posted by *isteve Actually I expect the IDS3 will blow a lot of 22MF backs away at high ISO (they all use CCD). I also suspect it will run them close on resolution. DR is where MF backs really score. But again the difference wont be that great. Bigger sensors actually start to generate MORE noise, its only the signal that overcomes it. At a certain point, you need thermal cooling for the sensor. This mantra that "bigger is better" is just baloney.
At higher ISO true, but in terms of DR it will not.
Seems we agree quite a bit
The bigger is better is no less baloney than the opposite IMHO
It is about the right tool for the job at hand. something I fully expect us to agree on as well.
Originally posted by *isteve I doubt ISO 6400 will be comparible but the shots I have seen at 3200 have been quite promising. They de-noise well too. Until the tests are done we cannot know, but its hardly a surprise that noise is better on the D3. They seem to have added a lot of NR as well jusding by the look of the pix you posted.
That pix is a long exposure at low ISO with NR off. and again web samples are hardly the right to judge from... The only NR performed is downsampling which hardly qualifies
So please lets keep it fair shall we, NR was the first thing I turned off in the D3.
I have posted very few shots from the D3 and none where NR has been activated, except for Long exposure NR.
Btw, the NR does not kick in until ISO 6400 if you have it turned on.
WOuld you mind pointing the shot where there seems to be excessive NR going on out to me? I would honestly like to know.
Originally posted by *isteve How many lenses have you tried? The 14-24 is a brand new lens designed after the D3 was in development no doubt. The issue on Canon was many of their legacy L glass. Have you tried any of that on the Nikon? The N actually has a narrower lens mount so it should be worse if anything. And Im sorry but how can I tell anything from that shot about corner sharpness? Most of it is sky or snow and its downsized to 600 X 400. All I know is some of my FA lenses have issues on an APS sensor, let alone a FF one!!!!!!
Yes admitted the 14-24 is a different beast alright... and you are probably right, my point was that none of us knows
Here is a sample from the photo above, I do not have an unprocessed version at hand right now... but here is a corner crop from the extreme right hand lower corner:
Processed for an A4 print which actually looks quite good.
It was btw a flare test shot more than anything else, but a very recent sample.
Let me know and I will forward you an unprocessed RAW file of a more suitable shot. I would actually be interested in your opinion, second opinions are always good.
Originally posted by *isteve Thomas I have no issue with professionals chosing any gear they want for the job they need to do, or wealthy enthusiasts spending their own good money on gear. However most of the FF supporters here are not professionals and would not consider paying $5000 for a FF camera and are expecting low cost FF for $1500. If this is the market, then Pentax are wasting their time by trying to respond to it at this point.
I know that steve. and we agree on the point about a low cost FF.
Originally posted by *isteve To be fair, most of these differences are a matter of degree which is on the whole slight. Shallower DOF is both a blessing and a curse (and its only 50% or shallower eg 4cm rather than 6cm). As for UWA distortion, have you seen the price of that lens you are using? I would hope it was darn good
However some of the APS ultrawides are pretty good too - my 12-24 for instance.
Yep I saw the pricetag and it was worth every penny I think. I am still in evaluation mode on it all, but so far the results looks promising.
The 12-24 has an excellent reputation, as does the DA14. I am not discounting the pentax lineup, it is one of my reasons to keep the system on the side for more personal stuff
Originally posted by *isteve Oh not that old chestnut. Lets please not go there!
They are only equal in the one instance where you demand equal DOF wide open. Since that is only ONE instance of a lenses entire repertoire it does not justify the "equal" tag. If I am shooting sport I need a certain amount of DOF to make sure I get the action in focus - with APSC I can get that at an aperture a stop FASTER which I consider a major plus. In landscape and macro work I also have an advantage. Fact is its a matter of preference but I need a longer lens to get the same field of view on a FF camera so lets leave it at that.
Sorry steve, I could not help it... we do however agree on the rest.
I quite like the nikon output for landscapes (at least from my initial tests... but only a very minor improvement. and you would probably not notise after processing at A3 size
Originally posted by *isteve Perhaps not according to Sony
True
Originally posted by *isteve I have spent a lot of time shooting with 5Ds (a camera I was planning to buy last year - glad I did not it really does not like skin tones) and have had the chance to use a 1DS mk2 a few times. If your job requires the kind of resolution they deliver, then I would say APSC has now caught up pretty much. If you want to shoot in low light, then it will always be a stop or so behind. For my professional work the K10D does the job pretty well, and is a fun camera at weekends too. I would worry far more about upgrading AF and the flash system than a larger sensor - and I am selling A3+ prints. The K20D will give me some extra resolution, cropping room and another stop or so I can use when it gets dark and I am delighted.
The question was not aimed at you, I was quite certain you know what you talk about.
As I wrote up there. I think you and I are pretty much in line on much of both the ups and downs of each system and I would be surprised to say the least if you would turn out not to have any digital Ff experience.
I do sell A3 prints as well and also from the K10D, it does great for A3.
Originally posted by *isteve But if you have a business need, or you have no problems spending the money, and your expectations about what you are getting for that money are realistic, then I have no problem at ALL with FF. The issues "we" are opposing here are
1/ whether Pentax needs to build a FF camera now to remain in business. The people who most vociferously propose this frequently have a very limited understanding of the business and technical issues involved and fully expect the camera they lust for to be $1500 or so when its released. This is simply NOT feasible hence there is simply noone who would buy it for a price that would justify the cost of development right now and this would simply divert resources which would be better spent elsewhere (flash, AF, lenses etc).
And
2/ there is a lot of misinformation floating around that is making FF out to be vastly superior in ways which it clearly is not. Its possible to make very nice very large prints from both which are indistinguishable at ISO up to around 800 or so. Its is also easier and cheaper to build a fast mirror box and up the frame rate on an APS camera than on a FF one (vis a vis 30D and 5D) and in the short term that and AF speed seems to be the main gripe about Pentax.
Steve I think writing this post was a good idea after all. we are much more in line than I thought initially.
I would say my expectations was and still is pretty realistic. It is a tool and I had a full weekend with it (and the 1DsIII) before making any decisions, a fun weekend btw
I think we agree completely on 1 and 2.
The advantage of FF is there and will likely always be there, whether one need it or will ever notise it is a totally different matter. Same goes for whether pentax will need to produce a FF body and whether it should be the top priority.