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09-26-2012, 06:23 AM   #1
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No FF for at least two years.

Time for all the FF worshippers to jump ship.

From the review posted elsewhere in the forum.

QuoteQuote:
SW: In terms of the entry full frame models, this kind of categories we're thinking of. In the APS sensor, there are also possibilities to evaluate a good image quality, that's why we don't actually have plans to launch a very cheap kind of full frame cameras. We also understand that the number of users increased recently so we are building technologies for the future models.
Did he say they are building technologies for FF models? It sure sounds like it. Although he could be saying they are building new APS-c technologies. IN any case, it sure sounds like any FF offering is at least 2 years away, if in fact it's coming.

Best case scenario, they are working on technologies for FF cameras but haven't decided to launch one yet, coupled with the 18 month product development time and assuming they made up their mind to produce one in the next 6 months, it would still be 2 years before they released one.

Worst case scenario, they aren't making one at all.

He does however say that using current technolgies they can make the 645 D much better than the Nikon D800.

QuoteQuote:
As we said, we are thinking about the evolution of the technologies, so someday in the near future... The APS-C sensor has improved a lot, as full frame sensors has also evolved a lot. That's why the full frame sensors are coming in the image quality closer to medium cameras. We launched the 645D two or three years ago. If we use new technologies for the sensor, we would make the image quality much better than Nikon...

Yes, we are thinking of a successor of the 645D.
Hopefully those who are concerned about the lack of an FF will move on, (many already have.) I have to ask, at this point, what are you guys waiting for?


It's pretty clear, form the article that Pentax is really focused on making their APS-c camera better.. as an APS-c user , I like that. So, my current decision is to stay Pentax and APS-c.

With a great top of the line Nikon system available in FF for 15 K with everything I'd probably ever use and desire, price is still a distraction, but it's doable. However, I still don't see it as necessary for my shooting. Those who do, you have options... you should be exploring them. After all, we all want you to be happy. And not being happy for at least 2 years.. you deserve better.

09-26-2012, 06:37 AM   #2
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We will get new Pentax model in spring, something around time we got K-01 for sure. Who knows what it will be
09-26-2012, 07:07 AM - 2 Likes   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Hopefully those who are concerned about the lack of an FF will move on, (many already have.) I have to ask, at this point, what are you guys waiting for?
For many, it's much easier (and self-aggrandizing) to stay with Pentax and complain, than to pull out the wallet and actually commit the $$'s to a full-frame solution.

I'm also pretty confident that even if Pentax releases a FF system in the near future, many of the people around here that have been pining for it will instead complain that it's too expensive and still not pull out their wallet and commit!
09-26-2012, 07:17 AM   #4
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When I see Pentax do things like take the AA filter out of the K5-IIs, it makes me think because they only make APS-c, they bring the latest and greatest to APS-c (-3 EV focussing and no AA filter) to APS-c before the other companies do, that makes me happy. Pentax isn't trying to convince you to move up to an FF, so their best technology goes into APS-c.

09-26-2012, 07:23 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by panoguy Quote
For many, it's much easier (and self-aggrandizing) to stay with Pentax and complain, than to pull out the wallet and actually commit the $$'s to a full-frame solution.
Good point, though it sounds like you are saying that we don't jump ship because the FF offerings from Canon, Nikon, and Sony are too expensive. The truth is, many of us like the Pentax design philosophy and would like to continue to have the lens options that the Pentax system offers. Sure, you can mount just about anything on a Canon, but I find their cameras clumsy. Nikon is far superior, but you are limited to Nikon and 3rd-party glass. Sony...to be honest, I haven't looked at their product since I bought my K10D in 2007, though their cameras seem to be attractively priced.

In the mean time, I shoot film and have a ton of fun doing so!


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09-26-2012, 07:30 AM   #6
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I dont get that FF will be two years from the comment at all. There is actually no statement regarding timelines whatsoever. He does indicate they are working on FF technologies (and could have been for months) and that they would not produce an entry-level low-cost FF
09-26-2012, 07:44 AM   #7
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I'm happy with aps-c and right now I don't even have the money for an FF, so that's not a deal breaker for me. I'm gonna stay with pentax, I love pentax for the reasons a lot of people do and for my own personal reasons and FF is not one of them. But of course I do want pentax to have its own FF, and when the time comes they come-out with the smallest FF camera, with a none crippled mount I'm pretty sure I'm going to save up for that.
09-26-2012, 07:45 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
When I see Pentax do things like take the AA filter out of the K5-IIs, it makes me think because they only make APS-c, they bring the latest and greatest to APS-c (-3 EV focussing and no AA filter) to APS-c before the other companies do, that makes me happy. Pentax isn't trying to convince you to move up to an FF, so their best technology goes into APS-c.
I was thinking about the K5-IIs yesterday and came to the came conclusion as you. It seems like Pentax is committed to wringing as much quality out of APS-C as possible...and in doing so, offer a lower cost alternative to entry-level FF in a smaller, better-built camera.

09-26-2012, 07:49 AM   #9
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I moved on long ago when I bought an used Canon 5D last year. I'm ordering a Nikon D800 for Christmas.
09-26-2012, 07:57 AM   #10
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I don't think there is any reason to read anything into these interviews one way or the other. I personally do believe that if Pentax wants to be a player in the SLR market, they will eventually have to come out with a full frame camera -- wouldn't have to be immediately, but certainly by the end of next year.

The biggest issue that they are dealing with is the lack of fast lenses. Other than the FA limiteds (leaving the catalog?), they have only one lens faster than f2.4. That's fine for zooms, but having some faster glass would be awfully handy. Basically at this point, if people want wide and fast, they have to go with Sigma or Samyang.
09-26-2012, 08:00 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I was thinking about the K5-IIs yesterday and came to the came conclusion as you. It seems like Pentax is committed to wringing as much quality out of APS-C as possible...and in doing so, offer a lower cost alternative to entry-level FF in a smaller, better-built camera.
That's all very nice... But the truth is, I haven't been as smug with my pictures since I bought myself a used Canon 5D to mount my FF Pentax lenses to. It's old and has only 12.8mp, the DR is narrow, and the ergonomics are probably designed for an octopus. But the IQ is noticeably better then on my K5. And, of course, most importantly, it's lots of FUN mounting my precious lenses on the format they're intended to be mounted on.
09-26-2012, 08:21 AM   #12
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Most of my lenses are Das an FA 50 and DA 35 will do FF, as well as the Tamron 90, but the DA*60-250 is by far my favourite lens and it's not FF compatible. So what are you going to do?

One of my photography instructors once said... find the lens you like and buy the camera that goes with it. IN your case you found the lenses you like and made some other camera work with it. I'm really tempted to get a 6D body if it would mean I could use it with my Pentax glass. It would make getting a 31 Ltd and 77 Ltd so much more worthwhile. But, top of my list is the 15 Ltd, and the Sigma 8-16, also not an FF lens. SO I'd have to buy new Pentax glass even if I could use them with a 6D, which I'm not sure I can. It seems crazy to have glass you can't use on both your systems, but I can see carrying a 6D just for landscape, for use with the 31 Ltd. DA 35, FA 43 FA 50 and 77. I'm thinking going long in FF would be prohibitively expensive and pretty pointless when you look at what I can do with the 60-250.

Someone would have to convince me I could make this work. I live in the boonies and experimenting just isn't going to happen. I'd have to pay for a place in the big city while I figured it all out.
09-26-2012, 08:23 AM   #13
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this really should be in the news and rumors forum, because I see nothing here that can be read as any form of commitment.

what he actually says is they are watching the technologies, and the improvements in image quality as they apply to all formats, and how they would integrate into pentax's product lines while also recognizing that their user base is increasing, and they are looking at future technologies.

I think you could easily imply from this that they will continue to support the APS-C and medium format markets, and not do a full frame, as opposed to coming out with a full frame in a few years.

that is the joy of properly formulated marketing announcements, they leave people off to interpret their own desires without really saying anything substantive

For me this is a status quo type of statement. Nothing more nothing less
09-26-2012, 08:35 AM   #14
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QuoteQuote:
For me this is a status quo type of statement. Nothing more nothing less
Exactly.... the *ist was supposed to be FF. Pentax got burned. They obviously have nothing against FF per se. But you have to ask... would FF increase their market share? If they put money and resources into FF they want it back. And there is no saying that the stuff they've developed in APS-c can be used in an FF body.

So you're talking bringing out a new product to compete with players that have a huge headstart and have been in the market for years, and have a huge market share. Pentax has to look at where they fit into that. My guess is that no one who isn't prepared to suffer a huge hit to their rep. is going to push for that option. IF the Pentax FF turned out to be a hit, they could be the next CEO, if it failed miserably for whatever reason... they could be running on their sword. You'd need to be a real gambling man.
09-26-2012, 09:16 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Exactly.... the *ist was supposed to be FF. Pentax got burned. They obviously have nothing against FF per se. But you have to ask... would FF increase their market share? If they put money and resources into FF they want it back. And there is no saying that the stuff they've developed in APS-c can be used in an FF body.

So you're talking bringing out a new product to compete with players that have a huge headstart and have been in the market for years, and have a huge market share. Pentax has to look at where they fit into that. My guess is that no one who isn't prepared to suffer a huge hit to their rep. is going to push for that option. IF the Pentax FF turned out to be a hit, they could be the next CEO, if it failed miserably for whatever reason... they could be running on their sword. You'd need to be a real gambling man.
the real question I have and I will be the first to admit, that I have not looked at anyone's market share, number of bodies produced etc, is that aside from a somewhat male attitude of who has the biggest %$#@(**, the true need for full frame is somewhat limited.

If you look at all the arguments,
- sensor technology is advancing much faster in APS-C than the full frame cameras, because the payback for investment and cost to develop new bodies far exceeds the ability of the market to bear the price. Therefore, and many have made this point already, to ride the leading edge of sensor technology, at least for now is to be in APS-C not full frame. This includes low noise and low light applications
- the only issue and it is marginal, is that full frame, when adjusting for not only sensor size but shooting position, relitive to APS-C has less Depth of field, but this only applies to shooters that shoot wide open, once you stop down, this argument is gone, and how many artistic, less than perfectly sharp (because fast wide open <> sharp) images do we need, the out of focus rendering is more controlled by subject to background settings. DIgital only shooters will figure this out, film shooters may be stuck in the past and do not want to change their setups.
- and what is the market share of APS-C to full frame, and would pentax be able to capture enough to make it worth their while. To do this, they would need to either A) replace on of the two existing major full frame makers, or B) have a good enough product at a low enough price, that they increase the total full frame market. But wait, where will that market come from. I would bet that the present status quo would remain in terms of overall SLR market place, therefore they will only grab those who are already with pentax because the canikon users will stay put. therefore they will do nothing more than shift their sales partially from APS-C to Full Frame. I would be willing to bet there is more margin in the APS-C camera than a full frame one (if it is priced low enough to make people jump) as a result, they will cut their own throats.
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