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10-13-2012, 01:21 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The K-5II Super will show a little more morie because it has to be enlarged more for equal viewing or printing. The more you enlarge the image the more apparent morie will be. I was looking at some A99 sample at 1:1 and spotted some morie and it has an AA filter.

I went on a walk to try to create morie with my K-5. Notice the morie in the center building and the color morie n the building on the right?
I see it. it's bad. I bet you wouldn't have seen it if the shot had been taken with the camera level.

10-13-2012, 09:20 AM   #17
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But unless you're using a T&S lens, it's awfully hard to do photos of rectilinear objects and not have at least some of them be angled w/r/t the others due to perspective effects. And aliasing artifacts can appear at a really shallow angle, so what's "level" to the eye (or to the famously inaccurate level sensor in the K bodies) might not align exactly.

Just to be clear, the example photo was shot with a standard K-5, correct?

(Winder, your intended meaning is perfectly clear, and please pardon my nitpicking. But my OCD and years of editorial experience [Coincidence? I think NOT] compel me: it's "moire", or "moiré" if you're being REALLY nitpicky. According to my dictionary, it's a term from the fabric, silk that has been processed for a rippled appearance to the weave.)
10-13-2012, 10:05 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by fewayne Quote
But unless you're using a T&S lens, it's awfully hard to do photos of rectilinear objects and not have at least some of them be angled w/r/t the others due to perspective effects. And aliasing artifacts can appear at a really shallow angle, so what's "level" to the eye (or to the famously inaccurate level sensor in the K bodies) might not align exactly.

Just to be clear, the example photo was shot with a standard K-5, correct?

(Winder, your intended meaning is perfectly clear, and please pardon my nitpicking. But my OCD and years of editorial experience [Coincidence? I think NOT] compel me: it's "moire", or "moiré" if you're being REALLY nitpicky. According to my dictionary, it's a term from the fabric, silk that has been processed for a rippled appearance to the weave.)
You are correct.... and correct.

I was trying to show that even with a standard K-5 moiré is going to happen. It was intentional.
10-13-2012, 11:12 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by fewayne Quote
(Winder, your intended meaning is perfectly clear, and please pardon my nitpicking. But my OCD and years of editorial experience [Coincidence? I think NOT] compel me: it's "moire", or "moiré" if you're being REALLY nitpicky. According to my dictionary, it's a term from the fabric, silk that has been processed for a rippled appearance to the weave.)
On that note, what is the correct pronunciation? Not sure I've ever heard that word out loud.

It will probably be at least a year, but I'd definitely get a body without an AA filter and take my chances. I'd probably have another body on-hand if there were tricky moire-prone subjects I knew I was going to be dealing with, but that is usually not the case for me...

10-13-2012, 01:16 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The K-5II Super will show a little more morie because it has to be enlarged more for equal viewing or printing. The more you enlarge the image the more apparent morie will be. I was looking at some A99 sample at 1:1 and spotted some morie and it has an AA filter.

I went on a walk to try to create morie with my K-5. Notice the morie in the center building and the color morie n the building on the right?
I guess a difference to point out is

-you had to try to produce the morie with the K5
-you would have to avoid morie with the S model.

thanks for the example,

randy
10-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
On that note, what is the correct pronunciation? Not sure I've ever heard that word out loud.
Hope this helps:
moiré ( /mwɑrˈ/; French: [mwaʁe]) (wiki)
10-13-2012, 01:45 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by TenZ.NL Quote
Hope this helps:
moiré ( /mwɑrˈ/; French: [mwaʁe]) (wiki)
I've never been able to make sense of pronunciation keys, even though I learned to read in the era when they used phonetics (thank god) -- my brain doesn't seem to work that way. I have to hear things out loud or be told what they rhyme with. I did find a site where they say it, but they had two versions! Do the french make it one syllable or two?
10-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #23
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This is english: Merriam-Webster Pronunciation

10-14-2012, 02:20 AM   #24
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FWIW in French it sounds like "mwaray" -- more or less
10-14-2012, 10:56 AM   #25
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I will probably hold off on the K-5II Super. I have a K-5 so I'm not too excited about the new II Super. But if I still had the K-7 or even a K-30 I would be probably be ready to buy.

I still think we will see a K-3 this Spring with a 24MP+ sensor and no AA filter. At 24MP I don't expect an APS-C sensor to show very much moiré at all. I would also expect to see the AF system expanded to 21+ AF points that are smaller and more accurate. Hopefully with a bigger brighter OVF.
10-15-2012, 05:28 PM   #26
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In my opinion, the extra money isn't worth it. Does anyone really believe that you will be able to tell the difference between a K-5II vs a K-5IIs when the II has been sharpened in any PP program? Especially at the sizes at which you would normally print with a 16MP camera.
10-15-2012, 05:35 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
In my opinion, the extra money isn't worth it. Does anyone really believe that you will be able to tell the difference between a K-5II vs a K-5IIs when the II has been sharpened in any PP program? Especially at the sizes at which you would normally print with a 16MP camera.
We make big prints, probably bigger than we ought to. It will help.
10-15-2012, 05:48 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
We make big prints, probably bigger than we ought to. It will help.
How much larger will you be able to print with the II and sharpened vs the IIs?

I'd be willing to bet a can of coke that with normal sharpening of a II you would not be able to tell the difference with even large extra large prints.
The IIs and the 800E were created for people that want supreme sharpness when magnified to 200% on their computer screen.
10-15-2012, 06:12 PM   #29
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QuoteQuote:
In my opinion, the extra money isn't worth it.
$100 isn't worth a sharper image.

QuoteQuote:
Does anyone really believe that you will be able to tell the difference between a K-5II vs a K-5IIs when the II has been sharpened in any PP program?
One of the problems is that the word sharp is being used to describe two different things. Sharp in terms of the K5 IIs means it's capturing more resolution and therefore more detail. YOu can alter an image with PP to make it look "sharp", but you can't add the lost detail. Once that has been filtered out it's gone. So will you be able to tell the difference? I'm going to say yes... you will, but you're then back to the price thing... is it worth it? I don't know.

QuoteQuote:
Especially at the sizes at which you would normally print with a 16MP camera.
One of the issues that we never seem to get agreement on is what size you can print to with a 16 MP camera. It's pretty clear that as you print larger, the image has to be viewed from a greater distance. SO it's not at all clear that a 16 MP image becomes unacceptably sharp at any size. I've taken 10 mp prints to 20"x30" and they look fine. IN fact one of those is my biggest seller. This whole question of when you reach the point where 16 Mp becomes un-acceptable is clouded in mystery. I'm starting to be convinced that with modern printers, and expected viewing distances an 16 Mp file will look sharp at any size.

So while I'm sure you're going to see a difference, I'm also going to bet that unless you are into a certain style of photography, as in say a lot of glass or crystal or things with hard to control contrast, the extra sharpness is not going to make a difference to the overall impression the print makes. YOu could put two picture of the same thing side by side, one FF and one APS-c, one with a lot more detail, but I'm not sure that in many of my landscapes that would improve the print. As any artist can tell you, sometimes you want to create impressions, detail is just not that important.

I'm sure someone will correct me, but I've read a lot of discussions and everyone has an opinion... so I'll just say in advance here, I'd like to hear from someone who printed say a 60" wide (or any size ) print from a 16 MP file and found it to be unacceptable. For myself I've already gone way past what I was led to believe would be good from APS-c. Forgive me if I'm a little sceptical when people tell me I can't get it done with a 16 MP file. If I had listened to those folks, it would have cost me money. I just took the files I though would look good large and blew them up without regard to "what's possible." And some of those images sold. HIghest possible resolution and sharpness is only necessary for an artistic style I would call "super realism." Very few photographers (or artists) actually work in that style.
10-15-2012, 06:22 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
How much larger will you be able to print with the II and sharpened vs the IIs?
It isn't that I want to print larger, but I want my large prints to look better -- the 24x36s or even bigger. They look ok now, but I wouldn't mind some more detail. $100 bucks extra for a camera I'm going to use for a few years (and that will remain more valuable than its counterpart come time to sell it) -- I don't see that as a big deal at all. If it was $500 more I'd probably skip it, but for $100 sure why not. I'm not actually in the market, so by the time I am the difference may be less and overall price lower...
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