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10-22-2012, 02:26 PM   #46
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Hi Norm, I think you should pause and verify what ironlion is pointing out, perhaps there was a mix-up in your first two images.

The K5 image shows a whitish smudge right up against the bottle on the left, but in the D800 shot the smudge is separated from the bottle by a little space.

This difference does not appear in your crops in the original post, but it does in arjaybee's version.

Top K-5IIs, bottom D800E

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10-22-2012, 02:48 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by ironlionzion Quote
People keep posting thanking Norm for this "comparison." Really? No one is downloading the two photos Norm posted, and zooming in to see that they actually are the exact same photo? Not the K5 vs D800 as proposed.
Norm, he made a good point. I know you are pro-APSC but here you made a mistake to compare the same file. He pointed out clearly. He didn't change the topic at all.

Really, if you like APS-C, there is no need to convince people. Everyone has different need and budget, and different style of taking pictures, just choose the one that suite you. Pentax FF is real and I will be getting one. Not saying my picture will be better than yours, but I want to experience FF, on those FA Ltds.

Lee
10-22-2012, 02:51 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by ironlionzion Quote
People keep posting thanking Norm for this "comparison." Really? No one is downloading the two photos Norm posted, and zooming in to see that they actually are the exact same photo? Not the K5 vs D800 as proposed.
This is because some people pick a post to reply to and ignore all the discussion that happened since. Most of the time this allows them to skip meaningless banter, so the approach pays off, but once in a while they miss an important point.

Good job figuring out what normhead was presenting!
10-22-2012, 03:01 PM   #49
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Here is another crop that shows the difference. The top two images are from the original post and look identical. On the bottom 2 images, if you look close at the center of the circles, you will see the dark magenta background is visible below the cap in the D800E but not on the K-5IIs.

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10-22-2012, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #50
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OK, I got it right this time I think....

9000, pixel image viewed comparison....John Bee and AH are right.... the image 1:1 comparison..the should have looked like this...



Printed at that size... the image would be 9000 pixels divided by 92 pixels on my display...would be 97 inches....viewed from a distance of 18 inches.. now you might be tempted to say..wow huge difference... ok get up and stand back at leas 6 feet or whatever distand you think you'd stand to take in an 8 foot print. Not as impressive from there.

If you convert the images to approx. 92dpi to approcimage what size they would look like on a 20x30 print (or approx 400 pixels from 1200+, ) this is what the actual images would look like, as part of said the 30x20 image.



So bottom line, I'm not as astounded, but still astounded. And I'm still going to say, at 30x20 inches, there is absolutely no reason to go FF in terms of IQ. But it's not as dramatic as I first thought.

So while it would be really interesting to play with these images and find out at what DPI it actually becomes worth going to FF to see a difference in detail, finding the exact point where the the FF iamge starts to differentiate itself from the APS-c image, which is probably somewhere between 30 inches wide and 92 inches wide...


Based on an original file width of 9000 pixels there's a noticeable difference. I you reduced 400 pixels, approx. the image to the size those pixels would represent printed at 30x20, there's no noticeable difference. At 800 pixels for the test image, or 2/3 the size, there's a noticeable difference, (sorry I neglected to save the test file) at 800, you can't tell the difference.

Test file at 600 pixels reduced from 1200, differences are beginning to show



I'm guessing for print size to have a noticeable difference viewed from 18 inches away, you'd probably have to have the APS-c file printed at about 48 inches or larger. And whether or not you'd see any difference at a normal viewing distance would be dubious at best.
10-22-2012, 03:18 PM   #51
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With proper, equivalent lenses, there should be no difference in IQ at all. The reason I'd like a full frame is for wider angles. Where can I get a 24mm/1.4 equivalent on APS-C (And I don't even need the DOF equivalent)? I think the problem here is Pentax, Nikon, Canon and Sony have to keep their legacy mount. We have APS-C lenses that aren't really much smaller or as fast as their FF equivalents. m4/3 has a new mount, and a lot of attractive wide/fast options to make up for the sensor size, those do get expensive though. A 24/1.4 on FF will be cheaper than any of the APS-C equivalents. So, if such lenses are important to you, the price difference starts to level out. I agree, for most shooters, and me included when I look at my finances, APS-C is just fine; but it's not a bargain when you start buying fancy, equivalent, glass.
10-22-2012, 03:32 PM   #52
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I've published a warning at the top of the thread so people new to the thread will see that John Bee was correct in pointing out I must have made a mistake in the original images. Thanks to John Bee for that and to AH for being the tie breaker guy. However, I'd also point out.. that given these parameters I'm not convinced you will ever see an IQ difference in print or on you computer screen in IQ between an APS-c and an FF camera on an un-cropped on your computer screen image or a printed image. I'm actually more comfortable with that conclusion based on actually having a starting point where the differences are obvious than I was before.

This is not to say there aren't qualities to FF images that won't make them more appealing in some instances. But those are artistic considerations and subject to the artistic vision of the photographer, not issues of basic image quality when enlarging the images. I'm calling it a day, at least for this topic.
10-22-2012, 03:32 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK, I got it right this time I think....
9000, pixel image viewed comparison....John Bee and AH are right.... the image 1:1 comparison..the should have looked like this...

Printed at that size... the image would be 9000 pixels divided by 92 pixels on my display...would be 97 inches....viewed from a distance of 18 inches.. now you might be tempted to say..wow huge difference... ok get up and stand back at leas 6 feet or whatever distand you think you'd stand to take in an 8 foot print. Not as impressive from there.

If you convert the images to approx. 92dpi to approcimage what size they would look like on a 20x30 print (or approx 400 pixels from 1200+, ) this is what the actual images would look like, as part of said the 30x20 image.
Both upsampled/enlarged to 9000px:

this shows significant difference -
after all we are upsampling/enlarging a 16Mp image crop to the same dimensions as the crop from a 36Mp.

However I take the point that once printed even to as large as 30x20
the difference would not be as significant.
same image above downsampled to simulate a 300dpi 30x20 print -


However - Posted as early as #16
QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
What this proves is that you downsample the results from a higher res camera to the same as a lower res camera, they look pretty similar.


10-22-2012, 03:53 PM   #54
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I have a K-5 and two D800E and I'd just like to say that there IS a difference.
10-22-2012, 04:12 PM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Thanks to John Bee for that
Apology accepted Normhead. Your welcome.

Oh wait, nevermind.
10-22-2012, 04:14 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
Hi Norm, I think you should pause and verify what ironlion is pointing out, perhaps there was a mix-up in your first two images.
QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
Norm, he made a good point. I know you are pro-APSC but here you made a mistake to compare the same file. He pointed out clearly. He didn't change the topic at all.
QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Good job figuring out what normhead was presenting!
QuoteOriginally posted by demp10 Quote
Here is another crop that shows the difference.
Thanks guys for highlighting my point and finally convincing Normhead that he was conveniently comparing the K5 photograph with itself.
10-22-2012, 04:31 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by ironlionzion Quote
Thanks guys for highlighting my point and finally convincing Normhead that he was conveniently comparing the K5 photograph with itself.
iron I don't believe it was intentional. Let's all play nice.
10-22-2012, 04:46 PM - 1 Like   #58
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ironlionzion,

You were right, but nobody is interested in a chest thumping demonstration. Both you and Normhead you have helped make this a useful thread, if we could possibly keep it that way rather than see it diverted through accusatory flaming I think the rest of the world, myself included, would be grateful.

Thanks
10-22-2012, 05:16 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
arjaybee's version
While interested in this discussion I don't think I actually commented!!!
10-22-2012, 05:18 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by ironlionzion Quote
Why is it that there is a clear difference between the K5 and D800 in John's pics but no difference in Norms?
Because John went for comparable resolution where the D800 demonstrates a clear, technical difference.

You could not spot that difference on anything less than an 8x10 print (barely even then) but can see it quite clearly when we pixel peep at 16X.
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