Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-25-2012, 09:22 AM   #31
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,748
QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I know insect eyes have a pattern that could trigger moire, but as Falk pointed out, you will likely be into diffraction aperture range for extreme macros, so your lens will break up the moire.

I initially thought bird feathers may be a problem, but I read somewhere that they weren't. Have you experienced this?
I don't shoot a lot of wildlife. Moire in feathers is common with cameras that have AA filters. Feathers are a standard test and included in DPR and IRs test shots because they can trigger it.

File:Moire on parrot feathers.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All sizes | Bluebottle flies #2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Look at the eyes.

10-25-2012, 09:32 AM   #32
Pentaxian
JinDesu's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,626
I'm curious. Wouldn't moire show up on downsizing of files? I have a picture of a NEX 18-55 zoom where the moire shows up on the zoom ring when looking at the 700x400 pixel version, but not when blown up.

Any input?
10-25-2012, 10:15 AM   #33
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,325
[[deleted]

Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:40 AM.
10-25-2012, 10:17 AM   #34
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,002
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
And this is why a good theory is so practical. One can predict that moiré will occur, so if it doesn't in practice, you know that you have to try harder.

While empirical results always trump theory, this is only true for thoroughly created and hence reliable results. And boy, are the latter hard to produce.
If you want to create moire on demand, common window screens found in most of our own dwellings will do. Focus on it at a slight angle -- distance depends on the lens in order for the pattern to be fine enough.

10-25-2012, 10:23 AM   #35
Pentaxian
JinDesu's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,626
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
To put it simply in inprecise words: Moire is "how sharp structures in subject vs. sharp structures in sensor and viewing equipment interfere".
If the downsizing algorithm does create sharp structures then you have a chance of seeing them. If it blurs the picture then not.

Best to see how things are is to take this file: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/downloadable_2/pattern_4.zip and play around with it:
display it in different magnifications, watch it through a matte focussing screen, take pictures of it with different cameras, cell phone and distances. You will pretty much always see some degree of moire. No need for a aa-less camera.
So what I mean is - these pictures that we see online that aren't full resolution: couldn't the moire just be a result of the downsizing algorithm? For my example image:



When you click the image for full resolution (well, larger anyways) - the moire is gone. But because of how the image is reduced and interpreted, the moire is shown. I think we may have to be a little picky when selecting images that represent moire.

QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
If you want to create moire on demand, common window screens found in most of our own dwellings will do. Focus on it at a slight angle -- distance depends on the lens in order for the pattern to be fine enough.
The humorous part is that I walked by a bunch of window screens left on the street yesterday, and with my naked eye looking at them from an angle, it looked like patterns galore. I do not doubt the camera would capture the same.
10-25-2012, 10:39 AM   #36
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,325
[deleted]

Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:39 AM.
10-25-2012, 10:44 AM   #37
Pentaxian
JinDesu's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,626
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Yes, they can: As I wrote: moire is interfering patterns and each computer screen also has a pixel pattern. That is why I also can see slight moire if watching the pattern through my s-type focussing screen (which has circular patterns on it), even though no sensor or electronics is involved on the second part.

If you use an EVF you will also necessarily get to see moire which will not be on the final picture because the specific pattern of the EVF pixels will interact with the subject patterns in a slightly different way to the sensor, just as your sample picture.
Thanks - I think all who post in this thread should really keep that in mind. Grabbing random pictures on the web to represent moire without considering that the moire could be created by an aggressively sharp downsizing algorithm will not help understand how common or uncommon moire is with other cameras.
10-25-2012, 11:15 AM   #38
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,325
[deleted]


Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:39 AM.
10-25-2012, 11:29 AM   #39
Pentaxian
audiobomber's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,674
These are examples of nature causing moire alright, but the parrot feathers were sharpened to enhance the moire. The fly photo needed to be stopped down a lot more for reasonable DOF.
10-25-2012, 12:52 PM   #40
Veteran Member
froeschle's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 552
NIKON:

Every potential customer of the D800E has to be informed about possible problems.
This is a commandment by Nikon.
If this information is veritably skipped by any sellers, they will not be provided with the E-version by Nikon anymore.


Last edited by froeschle; 10-25-2012 at 01:03 PM.
10-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #41
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 9,175
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
So basically, wherever you look, not a single well argumented serious source recommends having the aa filter for advanced photographers.
I don't want this thread to deteriorate into a tedious debate (which is why I so far resisted the temptation to put some things right regarding your first post here).

However, I willl object to your statement I quoted.
"Advanced Photographers" (however that term may be defined) do not have a reality distortion field that changes Physics according to their needs. If you want to say that a photographer who knows what they are doing has ways to address moiré (both during and after shooting) then that's a different matter.

Last edited by Class A; 10-25-2012 at 01:14 PM.
10-25-2012, 01:37 PM   #42
Veteran Member
ironlionzion's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 409
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
which is why I so far resisted the temptation to put some things right regarding your first post here
You should. Seeing as the K5iis is about to go in stock, it would be useful if people would actually know what the hell they are buying. It's a little worrysome having false information floating about.
10-25-2012, 02:01 PM   #43
Pentaxian
kh1234567890's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Manchester, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,405
Looking at some of the K-5iis photos posted on Flickr, there seems to be plenty of moire on shots from this camera - even on the not so sharp ones


10-25-2012, 02:10 PM   #44
Pentaxian
JinDesu's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,626
QuoteOriginally posted by kh1234567890 Quote
Looking at some of the K-5iis photos posted on Flickr, there seems to be plenty of moire on shots from this camera - even on the not so sharp ones


If it's on the "not so sharp ones" - then most likely AA cameras will show the same moire...
10-25-2012, 02:31 PM   #45
Veteran Member
Ecaterin's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 723
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
As an owner of several cameras without Aliasing filters ( Leica M8,M9,Leica Monochrom,Pentax 645D) I find the results I get from these cameras perfectly acceptable, I prefer them over cameras with Aliasing filters because I don't have to spend much time sharpening files, and they preserve the qualities of the lenses the images were taken with. [...]
I, too, will keep chiming in on these "no AA filter OMG!" threads along with the other users of non-AA filter cameras and say that under real world shooting conditions (portraiture, landscape, you name it) I have yet to see moire on anything shot with my Fuji X100.

We all know there's a huge difference between controlled testing and real life - and I'll gladly take the rare chance of a moire noticeable enough to need correction against thousands of fantastically sharp images right out of the camera every time.

(and good gracious, Digitalis, I want your camera line-up! Droooool! .....nah, I'd just take your Monochrom and run with it )
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aa-filter, blur, camera, cause, colour, detail, dslr, image, information, k-5, photography, sharpness
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
From K20D to 645D, Pros and Cons. Reportage Pentax DSLR Discussion 12 11-10-2010 03:13 PM
Pentax K-5 pros/cons psychdoc Pentax K-5 11 11-08-2010 12:41 PM
Decision: Pentax K10D, K20D, or K7? Pros and cons? Lulerfly Pentax DSLR Discussion 32 11-04-2010 09:14 AM
Pros and cons of the Pentax KM/2000 lesmore49 Pentax DSLR Discussion 109 05-01-2009 11:51 PM
Sigma 28-70 F/2.8 (Pros & Cons) GLThorne Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 8 03-24-2007 07:10 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:16 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top