K-5 IIs -- The Pros and Cons of Omitting an AA-Filter

RobG · 10-27-2012, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Pentax has already said they ave way more pre-orders than they expected, but I'm not sure they ever tell how many they sell of anything.

I wouldn't expect them to tell anyone their sales figures.

I was just contemplating whether there will be an undersupply of the K5iis and an oversupply of the K5ii.

normhead · 10-27-2012, 07:17 AM

I haven't heard anyone say they were planning to buy a K-5 II, so that wouldn't be surprising.

DeadJohn · 10-27-2012, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by RobG

I wouldn't expect them to tell anyone their sales figures.

I was just contemplating whether there will be an undersupply of the K5iis and an oversupply of the K5ii.

I heard a Pentax sales rep at the PDN Photoplus show say 90% of Japanese orders have been for the iis, while in the USA 90% have been for the regular ii.

halfspin · 10-27-2012, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

I heard a Pentax sales rep at the PDN Photoplus show say 90% of Japanese orders have been for the iis, while in the USA 90% have been for the regular ii.

Assuming the review due out Monday is as good as the previews count me as a 10 percenter.

rvannatta · 10-27-2012, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Eulogy

Correct me if I'm wrong, if the issue *does* arise, can the user not apply a filter(Or filters) to their optics to compensate? They would lose the additional sharpness for sure, but it would be doable, no?

Just took a snoop around for such a thing, apparently, someone has developed a removable AA filter for the Canon 5D. It rests in the chamber, and has just enough clearance for the mirror to move. This particular one was designed to reduce moire in video files for the camera, however. (I'd assume it would need to be stronger for it to be a standalone, however the concept is there nonetheless).

agreed I would assume that Pentax is using the II and IIs for a bit of a market test to sort out real world issues/benefits of leaving out
the AA filter in the next generation camera.this avoids betting the farm on whether to include the filter on the next gen camera model which will
likely have a higher MP count which presumably means less afflicted by the issue

Vormulac · 10-29-2012, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Adam

With that said, the IIs doesn't deliver what any flagship ought to have: speed.

Can you quantify that please, Adam? In what way does it lack 'speed'?

Cheers.

VladimirYo · 10-30-2012, 09:19 AM

Well
I sow nice ads about Q10. What about commercial for K52s. Any links?

**Eric Seavey** · 11-07-2012, 07:53 AM

I think Class A's original post is an excellent description of the pros and cons regarding the removal of the Bayer-AA filter. I don't think the slightly higher resolution pays for the risk of moire occurring in photos, but that is just my opinion. Removing moire in photoshop does take some effort, and to some it might be worth the extra resolution in those affected photos. It would be nice, however, if raw editors provided an option to simulate the AA-Bayer filter to the raw data of raw files. To me it would then make sense to go for the k5IIs, because effectively one can choose to have either a bayer-AA filter (simulation) or not depending on the photo.

**TomB_tx** · 11-07-2012, 08:20 AM

Most of my shooting is done with my Leica M9, which also has no AA filter. I have never found objectionable moire, but do appreciate the crisp detail compared to my K-5. Most issues like this are more theoretical than real-world. Yes I've seen examples of moire - so it can happen; but rare enough that is isn't worth worrying about. If I hadn't already bought a K-5 I'd go for the IIs every time.
(However, although I like the K-5, I wouldn't buy one now. I got it mainly because I could use my K mount manual focus lenses. But since dSLRs are designed for autofocus, the viewfinders are no longer suitable for fast and accurate manual focus. Combined with the reduced angle of view on my old lenses, I would not buy another APS camera. I'll look at the D600 to see if it is better for manual focus with the larger finder. I don't have as many MF Nikon lenses, but they are cheap, and I hate messing with autofocus. Oh for a digital LX...)

normhead · 11-07-2012, 09:07 AM

Quote:

I think Class A's original post is an excellent description of the pros and cons regarding the removal of the Bayer-AA filter. I don't think the slightly higher resolution pays for the risk of moire occurring in photos, but that is just my opinion.

Unless you have stats telling you what percentage of the time moire is going to rear it's ugly head, I'm not sure how you'd even come to that opinion, especially since higher resolution sensors reduce moire and at 16 Mp a K-5 is probably oversampling. A 16 Mp APs-c sensor should produce less moire than a 10 or 12. You need sample to sample 16 MP APS-c cameras to get the stats you need. And you could probably do that by sampling current k5 images. Like any part of the image, moire should be less sharp but somewhat visible even with a filter, it should be less sharp and therefore less noticeable. The two things that need to be understood...

1. Does the AA filter completely eliminate moire...because if it doesn't then you still may have to deal with the problem from time to time even if you buy a camera with an AA filter.
2. What percentage of your pictures will have moire using a 16 Mp sensor?

If you don't know those two things , I don't know how you'd even form an opinion. My plan, Keep my K-5 when I get my K-5 IIs. Learn to use the tools I have. I learn to use certain lenses in certain situations, using the appropriate camera body shouldn't be an issue.

falconeye · 11-08-2012, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Eric Seavey

It would be nice, however, if raw editors provided an option to simulate the AA-Bayer filter to the raw data of raw files.

As has certainly been said already, this isn't possible. A Bayer-AA filter cannot be simulated in software. Without a Bayer-AA filter, information about the original color of a given light ray is lost forever.

What anti color-moiré tools (in LR and other raw converters) do is very heuristic. Basically, they desaturate (parts of) an image and blur to remove the remaining false moiré in the luminance channel.

froeschle · 11-08-2012, 10:22 AM

Could the SR mechanism be used to mimic current Bayer-AA filters, such that both versions could effectively be sold in one package?

Another aspect: Some state from image comparisons that the K-5 IIs could be less prone to "purple fringing".

greg_77 · 11-08-2012, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by froeschle

Could the SR mechanism be used to mimic current Bayer-AA filters, such that both versions could effectively be sold in one package?

Another aspect: Some state from image comparisons that the K-5 IIs could be less prone to "purple fringing".

At slow shutter speeds it's probably theoretically possible to move the sensor in a small circle to mimic the AA filter. At fast shutter speeds (where the shutter acts like a moving slit) the sensor couldn't move fast enough to blur in both the vertical and horizontal directions before the slit moves past.

slip · 11-09-2012, 03:54 PM - **1 Like**

My opinion is...what are people going to notice more.... Moire pattern or the small amount of sharpness gained by having no AA filter?
The only way anyone is going to notice slightly less clarity is having something to compare it to...you would need the same photo from both the k5II and the K5IIs to know what you are missing, but I guarantee people will notice moire pattern if it's in an important part of the photo like her Favourate sweater or dress.
i guess as photographers we need to ask ourselves what is more important...your own opinion of the photo or everyone else's.
And with my luck,the one shot that does get wrecked will be the best one of the day

Thanks

Randy

vonBaloney · 11-09-2012, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by slip

My opinion is...what are people going to notice more.... Moire pattern or the small amount of sharpness gained by having no AA filter?

If you print big enough, the sharpness, although we should stop calling it that since that isn't really the difference but the increased detail, clarity, and crispness, yes...

11-07-2012, 07:53 AM	#83
Eric Seavey Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Irvine, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 307	I think Class A's original post is an excellent description of the pros and cons regarding the removal of the Bayer-AA filter. I don't think the slightly higher resolution pays for the risk of moire occurring in photos, but that is just my opinion. Removing moire in photoshop does take some effort, and to some it might be worth the extra resolution in those affected photos. It would be nice, however, if raw editors provided an option to simulate the AA-Bayer filter to the raw data of raw files. To me it would then make sense to go for the k5IIs, because effectively one can choose to have either a bayer-AA filter (simulation) or not depending on the photo. Last edited by Eric Seavey; 11-07-2012 at 08:11 AM.

11-07-2012, 08:20 AM	#84
TomB_tx Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,446	Most of my shooting is done with my Leica M9, which also has no AA filter. I have never found objectionable moire, but do appreciate the crisp detail compared to my K-5. Most issues like this are more theoretical than real-world. Yes I've seen examples of moire - so it can happen; but rare enough that is isn't worth worrying about. If I hadn't already bought a K-5 I'd go for the IIs every time. (However, although I like the K-5, I wouldn't buy one now. I got it mainly because I could use my K mount manual focus lenses. But since dSLRs are designed for autofocus, the viewfinders are no longer suitable for fast and accurate manual focus. Combined with the reduced angle of view on my old lenses, I would not buy another APS camera. I'll look at the D600 to see if it is better for manual focus with the larger finder. I don't have as many MF Nikon lenses, but they are cheap, and I hate messing with autofocus. Oh for a digital LX...) Last edited by TomB_tx; 11-07-2012 at 08:31 AM.

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10-27-2012, 07:07 AM	#76
RobG Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,902	Originally posted by normhead Pentax has already said they ave way more pre-orders than they expected, but I'm not sure they ever tell how many they sell of anything. I wouldn't expect them to tell anyone their sales figures. I was just contemplating whether there will be an undersupply of the K5iis and an oversupply of the K5ii.

10-27-2012, 07:17 AM	#77
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I haven't heard anyone say they were planning to buy a K-5 II, so that wouldn't be surprising.

10-27-2012, 07:57 AM	#78
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Originally posted by RobG I wouldn't expect them to tell anyone their sales figures. I was just contemplating whether there will be an undersupply of the K5iis and an oversupply of the K5ii. I heard a Pentax sales rep at the PDN Photoplus show say 90% of Japanese orders have been for the iis, while in the USA 90% have been for the regular ii.

10-27-2012, 01:51 PM	#79
halfspin Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 258	Originally posted by DeadJohn I heard a Pentax sales rep at the PDN Photoplus show say 90% of Japanese orders have been for the iis, while in the USA 90% have been for the regular ii. Assuming the review due out Monday is as good as the previews count me as a 10 percenter.

10-27-2012, 04:29 PM	#80
rvannatta Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Apiary, Oregon Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,181	Originally posted by Eulogy Correct me if I'm wrong, if the issue does arise, can the user not apply a filter(Or filters) to their optics to compensate? They would lose the additional sharpness for sure, but it would be doable, no? Just took a snoop around for such a thing, apparently, someone has developed a removable AA filter for the Canon 5D. It rests in the chamber, and has just enough clearance for the mirror to move. This particular one was designed to reduce moire in video files for the camera, however. (I'd assume it would need to be stronger for it to be a standalone, however the concept is there nonetheless). agreed I would assume that Pentax is using the II and IIs for a bit of a market test to sort out real world issues/benefits of leaving out the AA filter in the next generation camera.this avoids betting the farm on whether to include the filter on the next gen camera model which will likely have a higher MP count which presumably means less afflicted by the issue

10-29-2012, 06:44 AM	#81
Vormulac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 219	Originally posted by Adam With that said, the IIs doesn't deliver what any flagship ought to have: speed. Can you quantify that please, Adam? In what way does it lack 'speed'? Cheers.

10-30-2012, 09:19 AM	#82
VladimirYo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 290	Well I sow nice ads about Q10. What about commercial for K52s. Any links?

11-07-2012, 09:07 AM	#85
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: I think Class A's original post is an excellent description of the pros and cons regarding the removal of the Bayer-AA filter. I don't think the slightly higher resolution pays for the risk of moire occurring in photos, but that is just my opinion. Unless you have stats telling you what percentage of the time moire is going to rear it's ugly head, I'm not sure how you'd even come to that opinion, especially since higher resolution sensors reduce moire and at 16 Mp a K-5 is probably oversampling. A 16 Mp APs-c sensor should produce less moire than a 10 or 12. You need sample to sample 16 MP APS-c cameras to get the stats you need. And you could probably do that by sampling current k5 images. Like any part of the image, moire should be less sharp but somewhat visible even with a filter, it should be less sharp and therefore less noticeable. The two things that need to be understood... 1. Does the AA filter completely eliminate moire...because if it doesn't then you still may have to deal with the problem from time to time even if you buy a camera with an AA filter. 2. What percentage of your pictures will have moire using a 16 Mp sensor? If you don't know those two things , I don't know how you'd even form an opinion. My plan, Keep my K-5 when I get my K-5 IIs. Learn to use the tools I have. I learn to use certain lenses in certain situations, using the appropriate camera body shouldn't be an issue.

11-08-2012, 07:52 AM	#86
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Eric Seavey It would be nice, however, if raw editors provided an option to simulate the AA-Bayer filter to the raw data of raw files. As has certainly been said already, this isn't possible. A Bayer-AA filter cannot be simulated in software. Without a Bayer-AA filter, information about the original color of a given light ray is lost forever. What anti color-moiré tools (in LR and other raw converters) do is very heuristic. Basically, they desaturate (parts of) an image and blur to remove the remaining false moiré in the luminance channel.

11-08-2012, 10:22 AM	#87
froeschle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 552	Could the SR mechanism be used to mimic current Bayer-AA filters, such that both versions could effectively be sold in one package? Another aspect: Some state from image comparisons that the K-5 IIs could be less prone to "purple fringing".

11-08-2012, 12:05 PM	#88
greg_77 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 93	Originally posted by froeschle Could the SR mechanism be used to mimic current Bayer-AA filters, such that both versions could effectively be sold in one package? Another aspect: Some state from image comparisons that the K-5 IIs could be less prone to "purple fringing". At slow shutter speeds it's probably theoretically possible to move the sensor in a small circle to mimic the AA filter. At fast shutter speeds (where the shutter acts like a moving slit) the sensor couldn't move fast enough to blur in both the vertical and horizontal directions before the slit moves past.

11-09-2012, 03:54 PM - 1 Like	#89
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	My opinion is...what are people going to notice more.... Moire pattern or the small amount of sharpness gained by having no AA filter? The only way anyone is going to notice slightly less clarity is having something to compare it to...you would need the same photo from both the k5II and the K5IIs to know what you are missing, but I guarantee people will notice moire pattern if it's in an important part of the photo like her Favourate sweater or dress. i guess as photographers we need to ask ourselves what is more important...your own opinion of the photo or everyone else's. And with my luck,the one shot that does get wrecked will be the best one of the day Thanks Randy

11-09-2012, 05:10 PM	#90
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by slip My opinion is...what are people going to notice more.... Moire pattern or the small amount of sharpness gained by having no AA filter? If you print big enough, the sharpness, although we should stop calling it that since that isn't really the difference but the increased detail, clarity, and crispness, yes...