Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-08-2008, 06:34 AM   #1
Junior Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 34
Using long telephotos & Shake reduction

Hi,

What's the use of shake reduction and a long telephoto lens (400mm, 500mm, 600mm) if you can't use it on a tripod? Why does it have to be turned off?

Any other user comments on using SR with long telephoto lenses?

Does shake reduction work on bulb setting?

Thanks

02-08-2008, 06:46 AM   #2
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,294
QuoteOriginally posted by mr.voigtlander Quote
Hi,

What's the use of shake reduction and a long telephoto lens (400mm, 500mm, 600mm) if you can't use it on a tripod? Why does it have to be turned off?

Any other user comments on using SR with long telephoto lenses?

Does shake reduction work on bulb setting?

Thanks

Shake reduction is of value through 800mm (The Pentax focal length feature does not exceed that for obvious reasons) and in rare instances these lenses are hand holdable and images of quality can be captured.

Use of a tripod itself should not require utilization of shake reduction. Tripods are build for certain weight load restrictions. Some tripods can only handle 4 to 7 pounds worth of accumulated gear. Other tripods can hold 40-60 pounds worth of gear without torsion.

Further, when you use super telephotos you should have the appropriate gear to mount the lens such as a Wimberely head, or a sidekick that allows for both stability and XYZ panning.

I use 400mm lenses handheld quite often, and with shake reduction I have captured acceptable images at 1/8th of a second. Not my choice of shutter speed but sometimes conditions warrent extreme measures. When I use my Pentax 1000mm and 1200mm lenses they require solid platforms and expensive hardware. Since this is backwards compatible I only need one top notch head and tripod.

A good tripod is invaluable.

Stephen
02-08-2008, 06:49 AM   #3
Inactive Account




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: London
Posts: 1,067
Hi mr.voigtlander

Try reading the info contained in the link below:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/5104-k10d-shake-re...on+with+tripod

Hope this helps

Best regards
Richard
02-08-2008, 07:27 AM   #4
Junior Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 34
Original Poster
I use a Benbo tripod - the big one - with a 500mm f5 lens. When shooting wildlife in good light (ie not always bright!) shutter speeds get down and you still get camera/lens shake on a tripod.

For me the main attraction of using a Pentax digital camera with a 500mm lens would be this shake reduction. But maybe it's not much use here after all.

What about using it on a monopod? I'm not trying to get shake. But I know that for the conditions I shoot in with a long lens, you do get camera shake, and an image stabiliser system is a great advantage.

By the way, the lens is on the tripod (on a collar), not the camera. So can I cheat!

hmmm. Maybe I'll stay with film a bit longer yet. If you're shooting landscapes on tripod - yes turn off shake reduction. But for a 500mm or 600mm lens that's something you'd want.

Anyway, thanks for the info and links.

02-08-2008, 07:41 AM   #5
Veteran Member
Jodokast96's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Erial, NJ USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,132
It doesn't have to be turned off. But if the platform is super steady, it's believed that the SR can actually cause shake by trying to correct movement that isn't there. If you are still getting shake with a tripod, by all means try turning it on
02-08-2008, 07:46 AM   #6
Inactive Account




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: London
Posts: 1,067
Hi again

Here is a previous quote from Lowell:
QuoteQuote:
While people have written in that if you are on a tripod there is no need because the camera is stable, I am not sure that they have ever looked through a 500mm-1000mm lens on a tripod. There is all sorts of vibration, much of it very high frequency. This is why lots of pros use a sand bag to weight down the tripod.
Best regards
Richard
02-08-2008, 08:59 AM   #7
Busiko
Guest




QuoteOriginally posted by mr.voigtlander Quote
Hi,

What's the use of shake reduction and a long telephoto lens (400mm, 500mm, 600mm) if you can't use it on a tripod? Why does it have to be turned off?

Any other user comments on using SR with long telephoto lenses?

Does shake reduction work on bulb setting?

Thanks
Unless you are deep frozen outside on a hard winter's day you will always shake yourself a bit. A shake reduction system cannot correct that shake instantaneously the moment you shoot. So it has to correct in advance. It's called Predictive correction. Once you half press the shutter release, SR will understand what measure is your shake and apply a correction. If your shake is e.g. +1 the SR system will correct with a value equal to -1, so the result is 0.0 The moment you mount a tripod with SR on, the system predictively will apply a correction amount that depends on the Focal length of the lens. As the real shake is 0.0 because of the tripod steadiness, the result would be negative causing the sensor to shake more than expected on the wrong direction.
Rui
02-08-2008, 10:52 AM   #8
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Virginia Beach VA USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,364
Statement about not using SR with a tripod assumes a steady mount. If you are still getting camera shake on your tripod, go ahead and use SR. Also definitely use it with a monopod.

02-08-2008, 11:17 AM   #9
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 5,713
This'll give you an idea that SR does work.

I took this picture with a 50mm f2.0 from in my 8 foot long boat. So you know that it was rocking.

That brown spot about 2/3 of the way across and right above the water was a deer eating.

So I snapped on my Sigma 135 - 400, and took this picture.


Here's the cropped version, giving you an idea how steady everything appears.


It was taken shortly after daybreak, so it was darker than I'd have liked, ISO 200, at f5.6 and I don't know what the shutter speed was other than slower than I would have really liked.

As you can probably imagine that shot would have been rather tough without SR, or a higher ISO.
02-08-2008, 11:34 AM   #10
Veteran Member
PePe's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 464
I often use my long lenses with a monopod. I always have SR on, and it works very well. Cannot think of a single reason for not using it.
02-08-2008, 01:42 PM   #11
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 750
I use s/r with a tripond and long lens. My logic being that while the camera may be on a tripod, because I'm holding the camera (and trying to dampen lens vibration by keeping my hand on the lens over the tripod collar), I'm still introducing some vibration.

I'd say it's a pretty potent combination too. I generally had to give up if the shutter speed dipped below 1/60th of a second with my 400mm and DS2 on a tripod (admittedly, not the most robust tripod out there), but using the SR on the k10d active & using a tripod, I can eek out a 1/30th sec. exposure:


1/30th, f/5.6, tripod, s/r active. Originally shot horizontal, cropped to verticle.
02-08-2008, 02:15 PM   #12
New Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9
Last Winter. No Tripod.

Minus -10 celcius. Pentax K100d+Tamron Adaptall-2 SP 300 and 2Xteleconverter http://koti.phnet.fi/valokuvia/Pentax/IMGP2303.jpg


QuoteOriginally posted by mr.voigtlander Quote
Hi,

What's the use of shake reduction and a long telephoto lens (400mm, 500mm, 600mm) if you can't use it on a tripod? Why does it have to be turned off?

Any other user comments on using SR with long telephoto lenses?

Does shake reduction work on bulb setting?

Thanks
02-08-2008, 02:34 PM   #13
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
QuoteOriginally posted by Confused Quote
Have read that other thread and the thread here as well. Interesting topic!

But besides the reports about experiences made, everything is just speculation. It may however, be worth the effort to find out how the Pentax SR really works.

Just a general comment: as long as the gyro sensors don't measure acceleration, the SR will remain mute and it most probably makes no difference. Stable tripoid assumed. Stable tripoids can be found in astro photography...

I do not know the following factors:
- Does the Pentax SR measure 2, 3, or 6 axes of motion?
- What is its resolution (minimal, maximum and delta in m/s^2 and 1/s^2 resp.)?
- What is the Eigen frequency of combined system gyro, electonics, sensor-drive?
- Does the algorithm apply frequency-decomposition with phase shift, or does is work in the time domain?

If I would, I could answer some of the questions. For instance, it could be that some of the tripoids' vibration frequencies are too close the SR system's Eigen frequencies. If this is the case, using SR could be very counter-productive indeed.

But even then, a tripoid's Eigen frequencies will depend on the tripoid itself, the length of legs and the weight of gear mounted. So, by knowing more it may be possible to use SR with tripoids to one's advantage -- or by educated experimentation (e.g., frequencies of shake can be measured with laser interferometers...).


To conclude, I can make one recommendation:
If the subject does not move, use a tripoid with SR off to shoot a long sequence (~ 100) of (underexposed) images and stack them together using one of those open source software packages used to stack astrophotography images. This provides SR by software.
02-08-2008, 06:49 PM   #14
Veteran Member
distudio's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Photos: Albums
Posts: 448
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I do not know the following factors:
- Does the Pentax SR measure 2, 3, or 6 axes of motion?
Only two as far as I've been able to discern, horizontal and vertical movement about the axis of the lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
- What is its resolution (minimal, maximum and delta in m/s^2 and 1/s^2 resp.)?
The sensors as far as I can determine are Murata's ENC-03R GYROSTAR Piezoelectric Vibrating Gyroscopes:

http://www.murata.com/catalog/s42e.pdf

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
- What is the Eigen frequency of combined system gyro, electonics, sensor-drive?
It would be difficult to determine the system frequency response without testing but looking at the sensor above its maximum angular velocity is +/-300 deg./sec. with a response of 50Hz so the system cannot be faster than that.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
- Does the algorithm apply frequency-decomposition with phase shift, or does is work in the time domain?
Anti-shake apparatus - IP.com's Patent Debate
Anti-shake apparatus invention

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If I would, I could answer some of the questions. For instance, it could be that some of the tripoids' vibration frequencies are too close the SR system's Eigen frequencies. If this is the case, using SR could be very counter-productive indeed.

But even then, a tripoid's Eigen frequencies will depend on the tripoid itself, the length of legs and the weight of gear mounted. So, by knowing more it may be possible to use SR with tripoids to one's advantage -- or by educated experimentation (e.g., frequencies of shake can be measured with laser interferometers...).
My expectation is that the system is tuned specifically to measure and counter movement specific to hand holding, I assume that it can't correctly counter for the sorts of vibrational modes and frequencies encountered when the camera/lens is tripod mounted. I assume that the SR system drift and potentially system noise could prove counter productive in some instances when the camera is tripod mounted. And lastly I can't believe that they would advise against using SR in conjunction with a tripod for no reason.
02-08-2008, 06:57 PM   #15
Veteran Member




Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brazil
Posts: 377
QuoteOriginally posted by distudio Quote
Only two as far as I've been able to discern, horizontal and vertical movement about the axis of the lens.
Pentax also claims the sensor is able to compensate for rotation, unlike other IS systems. Very useful for supressing "shutter press" shake.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, dslr, photography, reduction, telephoto
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
M42 lens' & shake reduction Big Bob Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 11 06-14-2009 06:49 AM
F series zoom lens & Shake Reduction calicojack Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 3 02-22-2008 08:25 AM
Best long (affordable) telephotos? Finn Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 16 10-12-2007 01:44 PM
K10D, Shake Reduction & Tripod switch79 Pentax DSLR Discussion 28 04-19-2007 06:18 PM
Shake reduction & camera life Brew1brew Pentax DSLR Discussion 9 09-27-2006 05:58 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:10 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top