[JAtkinson]

Hello!

I'm sure this forum like many others gets littered with posts about "Should I get this.. or should I get that...". This is not the goal of this post, but I do have a question for REAL pentax users and not just techie info from review sites that post a bunch of nonsense regarding camera data.

For the past 10 years I have been a Nikon user. The follow is the gear I have in my bag..

F100 (film SLR)
D70
D80
and 5 good quality lenses
Flash

Over the past few months Ive been contemplating purchasing the new D300, however, after seeing the new Pentax K20D I was amazed. One complaint I have about Nikon is that their IS lenses (VR for Nikon) can be quite expensive. I also like to be a little "non-mainstream" with most of what I do. This lead me to research on the Pentax DSLRs. Unfortunately, almost everything I read on the Internet is a bunch of boring, non relevant tech data about the cameras and not actual views from Pentax users.

OK, to the questions...
1. How do you all feel about the customer support / product support from Pentax? Nikon puts much effort into introducing new lenses and upgrades. Does Pentax seems to be on board and still want to contend in the professional arena?

2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color

So far everything I have read seems to show the K20D being a solid DSLR, but if I jump ship from Nikon, I want to ensure Pentax will continue to produce quality produces (ie. I don't want to be in the boat Minolta users were in last year).

Hey guys (and gals), I appreciate any response. I want to hear it straight from the hardcore Pentax user's mouth and not websites like dpreview.

James

[little laker]

Welcome to the Pentax Forums James,

There are of course very few people here whom can say anything about the new model lineup, since it hasn't been released yet.

However I own a Pentax K100D, plus about 5 GOOD quality lenses, and I wouldn't hesitate brining it out against any other camera.

Pentax does seem to have better warranty service than the others, however in my opinion it's the camera store where I'll return the camera to. So they're the ones I'll be dealing with.
How will they treat me? That's all that matters.

Some people here say that Pentax needs more lenses.
I usually get OLD Manual focus glass, so in my case this doesn't effect me.

Whatever you decide you'll get a good camera, which will give you years of good service.

[Mikhail]

OK, to the questions...
1. How do you all feel about the customer support / product support from Pentax? Nikon puts much effort into introducing new lenses and upgrades. Does Pentax seems to be on board and still want to contend in the professional arena?
From personal experience and close friends, Pentax support is up their with Canon (and Nikon). I am just assuming that Nikon support is top class as I havent dealt with it, but I have dealt both with Pentax and Canon and find it to be top grade. The support is ofcourse not perfect, what is?, bit it sure is pertty close to it. There support was a lot better than any camera store help thats for sure.

2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color
Well personally I cannot comment on this as I have very little use with the K10D (I use a ist DL, more along the lines of a D50\70 than a D80\300). But there is a "2500 word essay" by a user stickied somewhere that I would highly recommend you read. Its about as close to a hands on "review" of the K20D that you can get. And Im sure the K10D users can comment on how it performs, and you could use that as a starting point for the K20D. Although Im sure the K20D will be quite a bit better.

Best of luck in making up your mind as it's not going to be easy!
Thanks

[Confused]

Hi James

Welcome to the forum:

OK, to the questions...

Well I am a relative newcomer (just under a year) to the Pentax fold, having previously upgraded from a couple of digital 'bridge' cameras (Fuji S602Z & Panasonic FZ20) so I think it's fair to say that I can speak from a relatively unbiased point-of-view. Before that I used Olympus OM1 35mm film cameras, followed by Mamiya MF equipment for 35 odd years, so I'm no spring chicken !
When I decided to enter into the DSLR fray, I carefully studied what was a) available & b) affordable and came down heavily in favour of the Pentax K10D, as it easily met and widely exceeded my expectations by a long chalk. The solid weather-proof build quality and superb ergonomics are unmatched by the competition IMHO, but YMMV ! I don't think you'd find anything to complain about either concerning the handling or image quality, both of which I have found superlative within the budget that I set aside.
As you will notice, I have only purchased two lenses thus far, both of which ironically aren't Pentax. However Pentax subsequently decided to obtain the rights to design their version of the Tamron 18-250mm, so had I been a year further down the line, so to speak, I would probably have bought that one. The main complaints I hear about the K10D centre around low-light performance and Auto-focus speed / reliability, but these are areas I generally have little experience of. The second complaint is a serious shortage of choice in the longer lens dept, but this is gradually being addressed by the introduction of new models which will appear in the next year or so. As you may have heard, the K10D is shortly to be superceded by the K20D which I believe has the best image quality available in the APS-C market sector right now......so watch this space for forthcoming reviews ! The built-in Shake Reduction (SR) is invaluable and naturally functions with any K-mount lens ever made. Thus you have quite a large selection of used lenses to choose from, especially on the second-hand market, although prices for these are going up rapidly as plentiful supplies gradually start to dwindle. The K20D has an improved SR facility which claims up to 4 stops as well as improved low-light focus, but let's wait and see what others have to say on the subject when the camera finally becomes available.

Best regards
Richard

P.S. Re your observation:

One complaint I have about Nikon is that their IS lenses (VR for Nikon) can be quite expensive.

....which is precisely WHY the K10/20D has in-body Shake Reduction. You either pay once for this facility with Pentax DSLR bodies, or on a continual basis with both C***n & N***n every time you buy one of their lenses.......it's YOUR choice !!!!!
The latter two companies aren't really being kind to your piggy bank, are they !

---

Last edited by Confused; 02-09-2008 at 11:41 AM.

[Peter Zack]

OK, to the questions...
1. How do you all feel about the customer support / product support from Pentax? Nikon puts much effort into introducing new lenses and upgrades. Does Pentax seems to be on board and still want to contend in the professional arena?

2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color

So far everything I have read seems to show the K20D being a solid DSLR, but if I jump ship from Nikon, I want to ensure Pentax will continue to produce quality produces (ie. I don't want to be in the boat Minolta users were in last year).

Hey guys (and gals), I appreciate any response. I want to hear it straight from the hardcore Pentax user's mouth and not websites like dpreview.

James

Welcome to the forum.
Well as to the support they have launched a Pro support program:
Pentax Launches Professional Services Program - - PopPhotoJanuary 2008

The quality of this service of course, remains to be seen, as it is new. But I suspect they will work fairly hard on that, at least for USA customers. USA service is very good and responsive in my experience. Even though I am in Canada, I've used the US service tech guys a few times. I get fast responses and have has lots of stuff faxed to answer my questions.
They have an express service for quicker repairs, as well and I understand there is going to be a lens loaner program for testing to purchase as well as to cover someone during service.

As for contending. Well they aren't quite there yet with lenses in some areas. The bodies are fine and the K20D answers many questions in that arena. It's not a sports shooters camera to the same degree as a few Nikon and Canon models but will do fine in the right hands.

Lenses in the long end are currently a weakness. There are several coming this year but the "roadmap" tops out at 300mm. That being said, the support from Sigma is good and they cover much of whats missing from Pentax directly. Tamron also appears to be making or planning more lenses to support the mount. The K10D was wildly popular and sold double the expectations. As a result, the 3rd party manufacturers took notice and are adding new mounts this year. There were several announcements to that at PMA. Pentax's goal is to be 3rd in market share and although the resources are much more limited, they are on the right track in many respects. With Hoya as the parent company, I would assume that they will have even better resources to expand the product mix. Not everything is perfect for sure but getting much better.

In the short end, Pentax is second to none, period. All important focal ranges are well covered with lenses that can easily rival the best from any brand. With the addition of anti shake in body (SR) you don't have to choose between 2 similar lenses that are SR or not, internally. Every lens ever built becomes SR automatically. I get 3-4 stops with a K10D and good shooting technique. The K20D is reported to be even better.

Image quality is something you really have to judge for yourself. You'll see many fine images produced here and a visit to the Pentax Gallery is worth the time. You can see pictures from each individual lens, including the older lenses, by going to the image data menu.
PENTAX Photo Gallery

Low light performance. This is a wildly debated issue. It depends on the user IMO with the K10D. If the camera is understood and shot correctly for the scene, you can get great results. If not they are noisy.
The K20D looks like it can easily match or outperform any model out there and be a tonne cheaper than any competing model that comes close in high ISO performance. Real world testing is yet to happen though.

AF can depend on a number of factors and the lenses involved. With slow glass, AF is slower. With good fast glass the performance is fine and I've not had issues with it. But I also don't shoot any other brands. I've done the usual in store 10 minute "tests" and couldn't say that most similar priced competitive brands were all that much different. But that is not a real comparison. Some are fine with the AF and some find it slow. I'd say Pentax has some work to do there but not much.

When it comes to sharpness,contrast and colour. Again visit PPG above. We are fortunate to have some of the best glass going. the 31mm, 43mm,77mm, and a group of other lenses have been thoroughly tested and considered to the the best in the industry. This has always been the area that Pentax stood above the rest.

The cameras we currently have and the new K20D will capture that image quality without any issue.

Am I a Pentax Fanboy (God I hate that word)? Yes without a doubt. I've shot Pentax for 25 years. Mostly as a serious hobby but I've sold plenty of 'work' over the years and plan to expand that business end much more in the near future (it's already happening). I've owned and used more than 50 Pentax lenses over the years and the K10D is my 9th Pentax body. Would I switch brands? Most likely not but if the business end of this demanded some other product or second system, then I'd have to look at the others and get what's required. I wouldn't shoot Pentax at my own expense if the brand wasn't there to support my needs.

I stay because Pentax has always offered a competitive product and at a reasonable price with performance that often exceeds the costs. Well featured gear and lenses that have always been a pleasure to shoot with.

As for the long term. Well who the heck can really answer that. Are they as solid as Canon/Nikon? Maybe not but they have a long history and didn't come on the scene a few years ago. We think the future is solid and the growth should support that.

Finally. ISO 1600. I don't shoot here much but this was from a little weekly challenge game we "play" here. It's shot at 1600 on the K10D. So you judge what the camera can do:
http://islandviewsphoto.googlepages.com/Soupcan2pp.jpg/Soupcan2pp-full;init:.jpg

[WMBP]

1. How do you all feel about the customer support / product support from Pentax? Nikon puts much effort into introducing new lenses and upgrades. Does Pentax seems to be on board and still want to contend in the professional arena?

James,

I am personally underwhelmed by Pentax service, but I don't have any experience with the alternatives. I hear that they are going to be starting a pro service arrangement. That bodes well.

2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color

You list four qualities. In respect to the last two (sharpness of lenses and contrast/color) Pentax is tops. I'm very happy with the results I get, in fact, I like the results from either of my Pentax dslrs better than the results I get from my Nikon film camera.

Auto-focus speed and reliability have been talked about here lately. I shoot a lot in low light, so much so that, when I get to shoot at ISO 100, I feel like I've won a prize. Focus will hunt when it's really dark--when I myself would have trouble focusing manually. But when it locks, it's usually accurate. In short, I don't find it a problem most of the time. I've not used a new Nikon like the D200 or D300 for comparison and don't doubt they may be somewhat better. But this simply isn't a problem for me most of the time.

As for dim light performance and noise, I'm a contrarian here. You will hear it said that the K10D's performance at 1600 is bad. The word "usuable" has been tossed about. I don't think this is true at all. It is certainly the case that, if you don't like noisy photos at all, you will prefer to keep the ISO low. And I will admit that I'm looking forward to improvements in this area in the K20D, which appear to be considerable. But I simply have not found noise to be a problem with my K10D, most of the time.

So far everything I have read seems to show the K20D being a solid DSLR, but if I jump ship from Nikon, I want to ensure Pentax will continue to produce quality produces (ie. I don't want to be in the boat Minolta users were in last year).

It's funny that you're thinking of moving in our direction, and I've been thinking of moving in yours. I have decided to stick with Pentax myself for a while. I'm not worried about the company going out of business. The K10D is a terrific camera to shoot with, it just handles beautifully. And you are right to think that Pentax is a great bargain. Actually, I think the bargain aspect is the most solid reason for someone to pick Pentax. If you want a solid, mainstream dslr (no four-thirds or Foveon sensor), and you're on a limited budget, you can't beat Pentax for value.

But before you switch, remember that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. You've got a couple good cameras there, and if you have a number of good lenses already, then the cost of switching to Pentax might be prohibitive. I expect that the Pentax K20D will compete very favorably with the Nikon D300, body to body. But that's not all there is to the brand commitment. Consider:

1. With Nikon you can find support - and accessories, including lenses, or an emergency replacement body--in almost any camera store in the country. Not so for Pentax.
2. It is possible to use Pentax flashes in P-TTL mode and get satisfactory results; I've learned how to do it. Nevertheless, while I have no personal experience with the newer Nikon flash systems, I'm persuaded by my Nikon-using friends and from all that I've read that the Nikon flash system is tops, and Pentax is not.

So Pentax is main stream in a sense, but Nikon is much more mainstream, and there are certainly advantages to having the same platform as a good number of the other photographers in the world. On the other hand, if you can get past the two problems I just mentioned, then with a Pentax system you can take great photos and either spend less or spend the same amount but get more. In-body image stabilization really is a good feature, especially beyond about 70mm.

Will

[flyer]

One thing I know for sure with comparing photos with "friends" having Nikon and Canon (forgive me for swearing) is that the autofocus seems a tad slower, but it is almost always dead on, which is not the case as often with the other two aforementioned brand (see, sometime I avoid swear word). As for image quality, you would have a very hard time to see a difference among all the camera in this category, so it comes more to a matter of taste and how the camera feels in your hand. Personally, I like the ergonomics of the K10d/K20d a lot. By the way, I used to shoot films with Nikon (that swear word again) F3 and F4 and also liked them a lot, but they cant seem to compete against digital when it comes to versatility (like changing ISO whenever the need arise). So far, my K10d has served me very well. Good luck solving your dilemna!

[JAtkinson]

First I would like to say this forum has the most honest members I have seen. Much better than the general camera review sites.

Your info really helps. My heart says go to Pentax, but my brain says stay Nikon, only for the fact that I have lenses and such already. I do like Nikon, but their digital cameras never really felt like an extension of my hand like my older F100 film camera did.

Again, thanks, and I will continue to browse this post and the rest of the forums.

James

[Peter Zack]

I think most of us would rather you join the "club" fully aware of the pros and cons and not buy in then discover that we were all a bunch of biased promoters. All brands have issues and Pentax is not free from that.

It might help if you provided some detail on the type of shooting you do and the needs you have. For example, what lenses (FL's) you currently have? What do you feel is missing from your lens kit?

That way many here can give you some guidance on what Pentax offers for your needs.

[WMBP]

First I would like to say this forum has the most honest members I have seen. Much better than the general camera review sites.

Your info really helps. My heart says go to Pentax, but my brain says stay Nikon, only for the fact that I have lenses and such already. I do like Nikon, but their digital cameras never really felt like an extension of my hand like my older F100 film camera did.

My head tells me to stay with Pentax, but I think our heads are reasoning on the same lines. Selling everything I've got at a loss and replacing it all with Nikon stuff would cost me a fortune, compared to which the purchase of a nice new K20D in a couple of months will seem like a real steal. Perhaps I've just been flirting with the idea of switching to Nikon as a way of persuading myself that I'm being financially responsible if order a K20D. ;-)

Will

[offertonhatter]

OK, to the questions...
1. How do you all feel about the customer support / product support from Pentax? Nikon puts much effort into introducing new lenses and upgrades. Does Pentax seems to be on board and still want to contend in the professional arena?
As far as customer support I have only contacted them once, after the recall of the mains cable for the charger here in the UK. They were prompt efficient, and the replacement arrived within a couple of days. So no problem at all with them
2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color
My K10D still hunts in low light unless it locks onto a contrast point, its still better than my DS though.
The lenses may not be quite as sharp as the top Nikon/Canon, but this is deliberate, Pentax wanted to reproduce the effects of film. However by no means that the lenses are in anyway soft, just not quite as sharp (but VERY VERY close). personally I like the results. Of course, the biggest advantage is that Pentax can use any K mount lenses, whether Manual or AF, and still produce excellent results. Also as they are Old lenses, CA is still kept in check, although one or two budget lenses can produce CA (my 28-80 is one). I have even tried some M42 lenses with adapter and found them superb.
Contrast and colour as superb, and with the K10D you can have up to 3 custom colour settins which I find excellent. The contrast is just as good, great control, and I believe the K20D is even better then the K10D.

So far everything I have read seems to show the K20D being a solid DSLR, but if I jump ship from Nikon, I want to ensure Pentax will continue to produce quality produces (ie. I don't want to be in the boat Minolta users were in last year).I doubt that Pentax will end up like Minolta, due to the support they are now getting from Hoya (the owners) and Samsung (who need the Pentax expertise to thrust their own DSLR vision). It also looks, after years in the doldrums that Pentax and the 3rd Party lens makers are supporting the mount a lot more, which is good for us owners.

Hey guys (and gals), I appreciate any response. I want to hear it straight from the hardcore Pentax user's mouth and not websites like dpreview.

[heatherslightbox]

One thing that I've heard, even from users of other mounts, is that Pentax has a good reputation for glass. I'm upgrading to a K10 and happened to pick one up from a guy who's getting out of Pentax and one thing he commented was that he was going to miss the Pentax glass. Unless you have really specialized needs, almost any mount will have something in the way of a body that will do the job. For me, what made Pentax stand out ahead of the rest was all the features they crammed into a body for such a reasonable price.

The pricy IS lenses were the main thing that turned me off from C*$?# and N&!@%. The lack of reasonably priced 4/3s lenses and a small viewfinder turned me off from Olympus and the so-so reviews of the A100 (the only Sony body I could remotely afford at the time I was shopping for a mount) dissuaded me from buying into either of those mounts.

For me, what it boiled down to is that for the money, Pentax is an amazing value.

No, I don't think many of us would consider ourselves quite mainstream. As for myself, I'm thinking of getting one of those "Why be normal?" bumper stickers and slapping it on the back of my car upside down.

HTH,
Heather

[offertonhatter]

Good for you HW. Pentax glass is indeed excellent, especially the older models, and i hear the DA* range.

The cameras themselves are also excellent value, where else can you get the spec of a D200 for the price of a D80 with the K10D. Long may it continue.

Note to Pentax - remember this and can you drop the price of the K20D here in the UK to be less than the C***n 40D please.

[WMBP]

No, I don't think many of us would consider ourselves quite mainstream. As for myself, I'm thinking of getting one of those "Why be normal?" bumper stickers and slapping it on the back of my car upside down.

I think it was I who described Pentax as "mainsteam". What I mean by this is that it's one of the safer choices. The four-thirds system seems to have some advantages, but they don't seem to be attracting much attention from other makers, and I thought that was a large part of the whole point of the system. The Foveon sensor also seems to have some advantages, but here again, it doesn't seem to be catching on. Pentax is sticking to the same sensors or at least the same general kind of sensors that Nikon and Canon are using. And of course Pentax has a long history in the camera biz. What makes Pentax cameras stand out isn't any easily described "innovation" but rather the overall quality of the product, down to the details.

As those who have been in this forum for a while know, I vacillate. But right now I'm pretty happy with Pentax. I'm even thinking of selling my Nikon film camera and replacing it with a Pentax film SLR. And if Pentax improved P-TTL, I might even be willing to describe myself as a Pentaxian. :-)

Will

[carpents]

2. Image quality is much more important to me than mega-pixels. I would love to hear anyones thoughts on things such as...
- Dim light performance and noise
- Auto-focus speed / reliability
- Sharpness of lenses
- Contrast and color

As stated earlier, since the K20D isn't yet released we can't yet come to consensus on the first two points. Nor can we really talk about contrast or color since they too are dependent upon the sensor.

About the lenses, it depends on what your definition of 'good glass' is. This differs from person to person, so without knowing what you are coming from it will be hard to give comparative advice. My favorite autofocus Pentax lenses - the FA* 85/1.4 and FA* 24/2 - are IMO better than their Nikon counterparts, but they will cost you almost $2k for the pair...USED. I also think that the Pentax FA 50/1.4 is marginally better (not sharper though) than the newest Nikon 50/1.4. The rest of Pentax's autofocus prime lineup is either on par with or worse than comparable Nikon primes, and of course there is less available in Pentax mount.

I don't own any zooms, but from what I read on Photozone I think Nikon makes better zooms than does Pentax. I've used a Nikon 80-200/2.8 and I was thoroughly impressed. I felt it did a better job than many primes in the same range.