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11-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #1
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In Camera Shake Reduction Question

I'm pretty sure it works. My question is why doesn't it fully work on closeup work? The manual recommends turning it off, and using a tripod.

11-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #2
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You can still shoot handheld macros, but if you need to expose for longer amounts of time, then obviously you'll need a tripod. Also, your image will generally be perfectly sharp with a tripod, whereas with SR you may still see some blur, depending on how slow your shutter speed is.

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11-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #3
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Pentax SR can only correct rotational movements, but the closer you get image blur will be more and more dominated by horizontal and vertical movements of the camera. Moving the camera 1mm up/down or left/right will not affect images much when a pixel is much larger than 1mm in the images, but 1mm on macro images might be hundreds of pixels.
11-19-2012, 10:06 AM   #4
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Good answers. As the SR keeps looking for movement when the camera is on a tripod the sensor movement ruins an otherwise sharp image. Ask me how I know.

11-19-2012, 11:32 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by wtlwdwgn Quote
Good answers. As the SR keeps looking for movement when the camera is on a tripod the sensor movement ruins an otherwise sharp image. Ask me how I know.
Set the camera to use the self timer or wireless remote to trip the shutter when the camera is on a tripod. These two modes disable SR.
11-19-2012, 12:15 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Pentax SR can only correct rotational movements, but the closer you get image blur will be more and more dominated by horizontal and vertical movements of the camera. Moving the camera 1mm up/down or left/right will not affect images much when a pixel is much larger than 1mm in the images, but 1mm on macro images might be hundreds of pixels.
Isn't it exactly the opposite? The SR can correct side-to-side shake (parallel to subject) but NOT correct for moving the camera in and out (toward and away from the subject, which is what happens with extreme close-ups) or outright tilting/rotation.
11-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Isn't it exactly the opposite? The SR can correct side-to-side shake (parallel to subject) but NOT correct for moving the camera in and out (toward and away from the subject, which is what happens with extreme close-ups) or outright tilting/rotation.
I do all my macros handheld (not that I'm good at it), but so far I've noticed that the SR is pretty good at left/right, up/down displacement. On the rotation, I've yet to see in any camera a rotational blur (the K-5 probably will correct it with the horizon correction)...but I know it's included in the functions of the SR because you can gain more degrees of horizon correction if you disable SR (which tells me it's the same mechanism).

What the K-5 cannot correct is the front to back movement...which changes the focus. When this happens (which is quite frequent in handheld macros), it's going to have a front or back focus effect on the image (assuming that you have correctly calibrated the AF).
11-19-2012, 01:43 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by HSV Quote
I do all my macros handheld (not that I'm good at it), but so far I've noticed that the SR is pretty good at left/right, up/down displacement. On the rotation, I've yet to see in any camera a rotational blur (the K-5 probably will correct it with the horizon correction)...but I know it's included in the functions of the SR because you can gain more degrees of horizon correction if you disable SR (which tells me it's the same mechanism).
I mean rotation of the camera axis, like panning on a tripod, not "steering wheel" parallel rotation.

QuoteQuote:
What the K-5 cannot correct is the front to back movement...which changes the focus. When this happens (which is quite frequent in handheld macros), it's going to have a front or back focus effect on the image (assuming that you have correctly calibrated the AF).
Yes, exactly.

Thinking about it, It would also seem that SR would be ineffective (in theory anyway) with extreme wide-angles or fisheyes where the perspective/distortion changes so much with any slight movement that the sensor moving in parallel with the shake wouldn't really help, but maybe the details are so small with those lenses that it doesn't really work that way...

11-19-2012, 01:48 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Isn't it exactly the opposite? The SR can correct side-to-side shake (parallel to subject) but NOT correct for moving the camera in and out (toward and away from the subject, which is what happens with extreme close-ups) or outright tilting/rotation.
The sensors in the camera are basically tiny gyroscopes that can only detect angular velocity, so lateral movement which is relatively large at short subject distances is undetected.
11-19-2012, 01:52 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Isn't it exactly the opposite? The SR can correct side-to-side shake (parallel to subject) but NOT correct for moving the camera in and out (toward and away from the subject, which is what happens with extreme close-ups) or outright tilting/rotation.
No, the SR corrects for rotational movement around x, y and z axis, but it corrects rotational movement in x and y axis by moving the sensor up/down and left/right. For correction on z axis the sesnor is rotated.

If the camera only corrected horizontal and vertical camera movement, SR would be useless for longer distances as it's only rotational movement that will add blur on longer distances.

This illustration is for optical stabilisation but Pentax SR corrects for same type of movements + rotation around z axis.

Last edited by Fogel70; 11-19-2012 at 01:59 PM.
11-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
No, the SR corrects for rotational movement around x, y and z axis, but it corrects rotational movement in x and y axis by moving the sensor up/down and left/right. For correction on z axis the sesnor is rotated.

If the camera only corrected horizontal and vertical camera movement, SR would be useless for longer distances as it's only rotational movement that will add blur on longer distances.

This illustration is for optical stabilisation but Pentax SR corrects for same type of movements + rotation around z axis.
Yes, ok, I'm using rotational in a different sense than you -- but the point is the sensor never changes its distance from the rear element, it is all lateral moves that it is correcting for, right? Basically the sensor it trying to stay in the same (parallel) position in absolute space while the camera moves side-to-side (in any lateral direction) around it, like your eyeballs when you look at yourself in the mirror and move your head around.

But it can never correct for the camera moving towards or away from the subject, and so those movements which only become important at macro scales cannot be corrected and is the reason why SR isn't as effective at those close distances. So I don't understand how we get to the camera not being able to correct for horizontal/vertical moves (again, parallel to the focal plane) when that is the only thing it can correct for. (Which is why I said isn't it the opposite?)
11-19-2012, 02:33 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
So I don't understand how we get to the camera not being able to correct for horizontal/vertical moves (again, parallel to the focal plane) when that is the only thing it can correct for. (Which is why I said isn't it the opposite?)
So far Pentax cameras only have angular velocity sensors for SR, so it's only angular/rotational movement it can detect and compensate for.

Some Canon macro lenses has acceleration sensors so they also can detect and compensate for vertical and horizontal movements
Canon in-lense image stabilizers — for easy photography without blur caused by camera shake

I believe Olympus OM-D also has acceleration sensors to detect and compensate for this type of movements.

I don't think it's important to correct for front/back movements for macro, as moving the camera back and forth is usually the easiest way to focus hand held macro shots.

Last edited by Fogel70; 11-19-2012 at 02:41 PM.
11-19-2012, 02:38 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
So far Pentax cameras only have angular velocity sensors for SR, so it's only angular/rotational movement it can detect and compensate for.
Again, it is still all movement parallel to the focal plane that it is correcting for, and at macro distances just the camera moving in/out from the subject makes a huge difference (possibly radically changing what is in focus, not to mention just what is included in the image) -- no matter how good the SR ever gets, it will still never work well at macro distances. (Unless it starts moving the sensor towards/away from the lens.)
11-19-2012, 02:52 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Again, it is still all movement parallel to the focal plane that it is correcting for, and at macro distances just the camera moving in/out from the subject makes a huge difference (possibly radically changing what is in focus, not to mention just what is included in the image) -- no matter how good the SR ever gets, it will still never work well at macro distances. (Unless it starts moving the sensor towards/away from the lens.)
Just edited my post when you replied, but I think moving the camera back and forth is usually used for focusing macro shots, so compensation for this movement is not necessary. And if if you want too, you can always try using continuous AF.
11-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Just edited my post when you replied, but I think moving the camera back and forth is usually used for focusing macro shots, so compensation for this movement is not necessary. And if if you want too, you can always try using continuous AF.
No, I'm talking about hand-holding a macro or near-macro shot. If you're on a tripod or rail, you'd have the SR off anyway, so that's what the OPs question was about -- why doesn't SR work well at close distances? It is assumed if you are using SR you're hand-holding the camera, and at that close distance your hand shake (that would matter) would include forward/back/sideways/rotation -- everything.
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