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02-12-2008, 04:35 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
And that's the point. We are not doing a comparison. We are not giving you a side-by-side FF vs APS-C comparison.

You get difference even if you use two different lenses or two different APS-C cameras from different brand!

All I am saying is if you are given an image without an EXIF, can you tell me for sure whether it is taken by a FF or APS-C camera?
Of course you can't.

02-12-2008, 05:20 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Of course you can't.
so then aside from slightly better high iso performance compared to the current cameras, more utility at the wide angle end using full frame wide angle lenses, there really isnt much going for a body thats 3 years old and selling for around 2100.

ohh and still no IS

like i said in my very first thread, the 5D is a speciality tool, it is by no means a godsend.
02-12-2008, 07:32 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
like i said in my very first thread, the 5D is a speciality tool, it is by no means a godsend.
Exactly!

What I find most amusing is all these folks jumping to get a 5D because it is FF and has the best image quality, blah, blah, blah.... and then to top it off they print at 8x10" or 11x14" and smaller sizes, lol. When, in reality, if they truly wanted the best image quality then they would be skipping FF all together and getting either a medium format digital or a digital back! The 5D is nothing more then a 20D with a FF sensor in it basically. And in print sizes under 11x14" you really won't see a bit of difference.

I am not now and never have been overly impressed with the 5D! The Sigma Foveon sensor produces much better colors, DR, and overall better image quality then the 5D.

Not to mention, Pentax produces far more accurate and true to life colors then the 5D does IMHO. Canon always had a sort of fake plasticy feel to the images. I only went with them originally because they offered want I needed for the best price at the time. When Pentax released the K10D I jumped ship and never looked back, nor could I be happier too! Well, except when the K20D is in my hands (if image quality holds true).
02-12-2008, 09:18 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by attack11 Quote
5d at iso3200. k20d doesn't come close.

the 5d is the better camera in every way. tighter/proper dof/bokeh, better iso performance. aps-c is a compromise, that anyone can learn to work with. i love my k10d, but if i could get a full frame at a reasonable price i'd switch in an instance because it'll let me get the images i want.

f1.4 will be f1.4
Are you getting a little carried away about the 5d? I thought bokeh was primarily a lense attribute.

02-12-2008, 09:55 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
ofcourse they will be different if you start walking backwards with the cropped camera, thats understood.

and ofcourse the FF camera might produce a better image because you are physicaly closer to the subject if you try to force the same FOV on both cameras

and ofcourse your DOF will be different



but take the image at the same distance from both cameras, and then CROP the 5D to the same FOV as the cropped camera.

still different images?
Of course not. If you mount a 50mm f/1.4 on both cameras, shoot at the same distance and aperture, and then crop the FF image so it has the same field of view, and then print both images at 8x10, both photos will have the same DOF. (For those you just reading along: imagine putting the ASP-C sensor right on top of the FF sensor and then taking the image -- the crop excludes all the light that didn't fall on the ASP-C sensor, and then we take whatever is left and "blow it up" to 8x10.)

But now we've cropped and compromised our FOV. If you want to maintain the FF FOV at a given subject distance, then DOF will be affected, because the cropped camera will be shooting a lens with a shorter focal length.

I also understand this doesn't matter a whole lot to the vast majority of photographers... only the ones who frequent photography forums.

-T
02-12-2008, 11:28 PM   #36
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I work with I guy who owns a 5D. Now, I could be wrong... But he cares more about the cost of his camera, and the mega pix number. "12 megapixal, and cost me $7,000!!" then what the camera can do.

I said, "Wow nice camera. One of the few full frame sensors. How is the hi ISO performance?"

He mumbled something about the flash.

I said, "What's your shortest lens?" (I'm thinking wide vistas and mountains...)

He said, "I just have this zoom".

I could see in his eyes, his brain pondering the word "shortest".

........


Really, my little story has little to do with the topic at hand. I just had to tell someone.
Lots of things (cameras included) get bought not for what they can do, but for what people imagine they can do. My co-worker is a case in point. He has no idea what his full frame 5D is good for. But he is convinced his photos will be the best money can buy.

As for IQ of 5D vs K20D, I will be waiting to see the reviews. I am expecting great things from this new sensor. My gut tells me it will be the sensor everyone compaires to.

Did I mention I have the better office?
02-13-2008, 04:20 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by digitaldevo Quote
The 5D is nothing more then a 20D with a FF sensor in it basically. And in print sizes under 11x14" you really won't see a bit of difference.
Will you see a difference when you print a digital photo made with a 10MP P&S and a DSLR, assuming noise is not noticeable for both?

QuoteQuote:
I am not now and never have been overly impressed with the 5D! The Sigma Foveon sensor produces much better colors, DR, and overall better image quality then the 5D.
Well, how did you use your 5D? And, what are you actually comparing?

QuoteQuote:
Not to mention, Pentax produces far more accurate and true to life colors then the 5D does IMHO. Canon always had a sort of fake plasticy feel to the images. I only went with them originally because they offered want I needed for the best price at the time. When Pentax released the K10D I jumped ship and never looked back, nor could I be happier too! Well, except when the K20D is in my hands (if image quality holds true).
Well, as for the plasticky feel, I do agree with you to a certain extent. Well, sometimes my K100D did do it better. However, I don't think the K10D is anything really better as I could see unfaithful skin tone and texture with the K10D too.

Also, since the K20D is also using CMOS, why you are so sure the results and outcome will be different?
02-13-2008, 04:22 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Photomy Quote
Are you getting a little carried away about the 5d? I thought bokeh was primarily a lense attribute.
If you use a FF lens on a cropped camera body, the bokeh can be different since it is magnified. Thus, the outcome is not exactly as it was originally to be.

02-13-2008, 06:56 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
And that's the point. We are not doing a comparison. We are not giving you a side-by-side FF vs APS-C comparison.

You get difference even if you use two different lenses or two different APS-C cameras from different brand!

All I am saying is if you are given an image without an EXIF, can you tell me for sure whether it is taken by a FF or APS-C camera?
Of course you can!

The 5D will have the "FF 3D look" (or is it the "FF glow"? Can't remember...)
02-13-2008, 07:30 AM   #40
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HUH????

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If you use a FF lens on a cropped camera body, the bokeh can be different since it is magnified. Thus, the outcome is not exactly as it was originally to be.
It's just a field of view difference. There is no "magnification"..............
02-13-2008, 07:49 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Well, as for the plasticky feel, I do agree with you to a certain extent. Well, sometimes my K100D did do it better. However, I don't think the K10D is anything really better as I could see unfaithful skin tone and texture with the K10D too.

Also, since the K20D is also using CMOS, why you are so sure the results and outcome will be different?
It's not just CMOS vs CCD.. it's in the processing pipeline that causes what you see ...
On high iso's it may be added to w/ on-chip chroma NR but I have to check that a bit.

Re: Portraits with the 1D MKIII? Hmmm ...: Canon EOS-1D/1Ds/5D Forum: Digital Photography Review
photoSIG » Skin tones, Nikon, Canon, etc..
02-13-2008, 08:28 AM   #42
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I just had to laugh at the "ISO 1600 shots from the K10D are completely unusable" comment..

Not only are they usable, they are perfectly usable and print very well. I set the image size to 20x24" and stuck a sheet of 8.5x11" glossy photo paper in the Canon and the resulting 'part' of the image is beautiful.

Here's a sample RAW image you can play with.. This is ISO 1600 on the K10D http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1240860~36317ee06b357f83643a802c6c5c7da3/IMGP9214.zip
02-13-2008, 08:31 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
And that's the point. We are not doing a comparison. We are not giving you a side-by-side FF vs APS-C comparison.

You get difference even if you use two different lenses or two different APS-C cameras from different brand!

All I am saying is if you are given an image without an EXIF, can you tell me for sure whether it is taken by a FF or APS-C camera?
if the photographer is good, usually yes. i've never had a problem spotting a 5d image compared to cropped sensors. the bokeh just pops in a different way; just like mf/lf looks different than 35mm.
02-13-2008, 08:36 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom M Quote
I just had to laugh at the "ISO 1600 shots from the K10D are completely unusable" comment..

Not only are they usable, they are perfectly usable and print very well. I set the image size to 20x24" and stuck a sheet of 8.5x11" glossy photo paper in the Canon and the resulting 'part' of the image is beautiful.

Here's a sample RAW image you can play with.. This is ISO 1600 on the K10D http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1240860~36317ee06b357f83643a802c6c5c7da3/IMGP9214.zip
all of these shot at iso1250 and under exposed a stop and not pushed to hide the noise. in a decently lit area, the noise isn't as bad as in the shadows where it's horrible. the shot of my buddy's exaggerated smile has insane noise. if i had taken it at iso1600 i'd have even less facial detail. 2 images had noise ninja run on em with generally ideal settings for the pics and it just passes as almost not being noticable.

i don't understand why some peeps on this forum are in denial about the limitations of the pentax bodies. they're far from perfect; but very nice to work with.
02-13-2008, 11:38 AM   #45
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Here's a grand idea. Don't underexpose your shots. It's no secret that the K10D (and most other cameras) benefit from being pushed as far to the right as possible.
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