5d vs k20d

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Jodokast96

Here's a grand idea. Don't underexpose your shots. It's no secret that the K10D (and most other cameras) benefit from being pushed as far to the right as possible.

don't know the trick of under exposing a stop to get a faster shutter then pushing the stop in post processing? it's common practice; just doesn't work when you go above iso1000 in low light with a k10d.

got any tips for shooting hand held in low light? i'd love to know what you'd do.

Tom M · 02-13-2008, 01:11 PM

Underexposing your shot and pushing it in PP is no trick. It's a fix for a poor photo in the first place.

The better you understand what your equipment is capable of and how to achieve the best results from it, the better your images will be. And once you do, you'll see that ISO 1600 images from the K10D can be amazingly clean.

And FYI, it's not called 'hiding the noise', it's called, exposing to the right.. Try google.. It's how you get properly exposed images with little noise. No tricks, just a technique that works. Your welcome.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by attack11

don't know the trick of under exposing a stop to get a faster shutter then pushing the stop in post processing? it's common practice; just doesn't work when you go above iso1000 in low light with a k10d.

got any tips for shooting hand held in low light? i'd love to know what you'd do.

with SR you can do 1/10 easy i always overexpose 1/2 or 2/3 stop because my shots turn out dark.

for noise control you are better overexposing at the initiat shot then pulling back in post processing than shooting dark in camera then overexposing during post processing.

there is no trick, figure out a way to create a tripod with your arms and dont shake..

here are some slow shutter shots,

all are either exposed at 0 or +0.3 +0.7 EV.

1/10 iso 1600

1/10 iso 1600

here is a freaking 1/8 shot at iso 1600

and another 1/8 shot at iso 1600

Tom M · 02-13-2008, 01:15 PM

attack - Here's another RAW for you to play with - I shot this, 1/90th shutter .. http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1240837~542dd37fe3692d89bb45f874d740d97d/IMGP9204.zip

I won't say it's noiseless but, lol, it's very noise free..

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Tom M

Underexposing your shot and pushing it in PP is no trick. It's a fix for a poor photo in the first place.

The better you understand what your equipment is capable of and how to achieve the best results from it, the better your images will be. And once you do, you'll see that ISO 1600 images from the K10D can be amazingly clean.

And FYI, it's not called 'hiding the noise', it's called, exposing to the right.. Try google.. It's how you get properly exposed images with little noise. No tricks, just a technique that works. Your welcome.

i can't believe you actually wrote that. it is common practice and considered a trick when you need a faster shutter than a properly exposed image will give you. practically every photog i know irl does this and they range from pentax to canon to nikon people.

if i had pushed the stop to achieve the higher iso while maintaining the fastest possible shutter i would have massive noise. you seem to be ignoring the drastic difference of noise in a well lit scene versus a shadowed scene. the pic of my friend blinking is very good for noise while anything in the poorer light is drastically different.

still can't believe you think i didn't have a plan when i set my camera up and gave it to a friend to shoot with. sigh.

i know how far i can push my 50/k10d combo for shutter, but that's only good for still subjects. 1/6 is as low as my hands can go, 1/10 is very easy to get. both are useless for people in motion.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by attack11

i can't believe you actually wrote that. it is common practice and considered a trick when you need a faster shutter than a properly exposed image will give you.

then dont complain about noise!

Originally posted by attack11

both are useless for people in motion .

here is a little photography trick, scream out "FREEZE".... if your friends are like mine they are quite used to it and listen.

also bar setting motion blur is not as bad as some people think.

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

then dont complain about noise!

you do realize underexposing 1 stop and then pushing that stop puts me up to the next iso right? just gives me a faster shutter.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by attack11

you do realize underexposing 1 stop and then pushing that stop puts me up to the next iso right? just gives me a faster shutter.

having the shutter open longer is not the same as giving a stronger signal boost.

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:35 PM

lol. sorry, i just work my hardware to it's limits instead of relying on others to stop what they're doing.

that was the first time i've used my k10d in that kind of light situation and i was massively let down with how it did. my ist dl could handle that light better.

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

having the shutter open longer is not the same as giving a stronger signal boost.

you should read up on it.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:36 PM

shooting at ISO 800 at lets say 1/10, then pushing it to 1600 in lightroom, will give you worse results than shooting at ISO 1600 at the same 1/10 then pulling back 1/2 a stop or more in lightroom.

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:40 PM

if you say so. i'll just ignore all the stuff i've learned shooting hockey in low light arenas. you've opened my eyes Gooshin.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by attack11

if you say so. i'll just ignore all the stuff i've learned shooting hockey in low light arenas. you've opened my eyes Gooshin.

hockey is completly different than bars, you dont have a freaking luminous white surface covering 50% of your screen.

ive never shot hockey, but if you look at my galleries you will see over 60% of them are bars/clubs/streets at night, so if you want to ignore my advice on flashless bar shooting, go ahead.

attack11 · 02-13-2008, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

hockey is completly different than bars, you dont have a freaking luminous white surface covering 50% of your screen.

ive never shot hockey, but if you look at my galleries you will see over 60% of them are bars/clubs/streets at night, so if you want to ignore my advice on flashless bar shooting, go ahead.

it's not as different as you seem to think. the same under expose/push a stop applies if you want the fastest shutter with the least noise. you gotta remember, you start with less noise at the lower iso always; pushing that stop doesn't introduce more noise.

Gooshin · 02-13-2008, 01:55 PM

all i know, from personal experience, is that unpleasant noise originating in high ISO pictures (1600, since i dont have options between that and 800) is largely determined by whether or not i properly or over expose a shot.

trying to "push" underexposed high ISO pictures will most definetly get you horrible results, if thats how you do things then i'm not at all surprised at your distaste for using high ISO.

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02-13-2008, 12:59 PM	#46
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	Originally posted by Jodokast96 Here's a grand idea. Don't underexpose your shots. It's no secret that the K10D (and most other cameras) benefit from being pushed as far to the right as possible. don't know the trick of under exposing a stop to get a faster shutter then pushing the stop in post processing? it's common practice; just doesn't work when you go above iso1000 in low light with a k10d. got any tips for shooting hand held in low light? i'd love to know what you'd do.

02-13-2008, 01:11 PM	#47
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	Underexposing your shot and pushing it in PP is no trick. It's a fix for a poor photo in the first place. The better you understand what your equipment is capable of and how to achieve the best results from it, the better your images will be. And once you do, you'll see that ISO 1600 images from the K10D can be amazingly clean. And FYI, it's not called 'hiding the noise', it's called, exposing to the right.. Try google.. It's how you get properly exposed images with little noise. No tricks, just a technique that works. Your welcome.

02-13-2008, 01:12 PM	#48
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by attack11 don't know the trick of under exposing a stop to get a faster shutter then pushing the stop in post processing? it's common practice; just doesn't work when you go above iso1000 in low light with a k10d. got any tips for shooting hand held in low light? i'd love to know what you'd do. with SR you can do 1/10 easy i always overexpose 1/2 or 2/3 stop because my shots turn out dark. for noise control you are better overexposing at the initiat shot then pulling back in post processing than shooting dark in camera then overexposing during post processing. there is no trick, figure out a way to create a tripod with your arms and dont shake.. here are some slow shutter shots, all are either exposed at 0 or +0.3 +0.7 EV. 1/10 iso 1600 1/10 iso 1600 here is a freaking 1/8 shot at iso 1600 and another 1/8 shot at iso 1600

02-13-2008, 01:15 PM	#49
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	attack - Here's another RAW for you to play with - I shot this, 1/90th shutter .. http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1240837~542dd37fe3692d89bb45f874d740d97d/IMGP9204.zip I won't say it's noiseless but, lol, it's very noise free..

02-13-2008, 01:30 PM	#50
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	Originally posted by Tom M Underexposing your shot and pushing it in PP is no trick. It's a fix for a poor photo in the first place. The better you understand what your equipment is capable of and how to achieve the best results from it, the better your images will be. And once you do, you'll see that ISO 1600 images from the K10D can be amazingly clean. And FYI, it's not called 'hiding the noise', it's called, exposing to the right.. Try google.. It's how you get properly exposed images with little noise. No tricks, just a technique that works. Your welcome. i can't believe you actually wrote that. it is common practice and considered a trick when you need a faster shutter than a properly exposed image will give you. practically every photog i know irl does this and they range from pentax to canon to nikon people. if i had pushed the stop to achieve the higher iso while maintaining the fastest possible shutter i would have massive noise. you seem to be ignoring the drastic difference of noise in a well lit scene versus a shadowed scene. the pic of my friend blinking is very good for noise while anything in the poorer light is drastically different. still can't believe you think i didn't have a plan when i set my camera up and gave it to a friend to shoot with. sigh. i know how far i can push my 50/k10d combo for shutter, but that's only good for still subjects. 1/6 is as low as my hands can go, 1/10 is very easy to get. both are useless for people in motion.

02-13-2008, 01:31 PM	#51
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by attack11 i can't believe you actually wrote that. it is common practice and considered a trick when you need a faster shutter than a properly exposed image will give you. then dont complain about noise! Originally posted by attack11 both are useless for people in motion . here is a little photography trick, scream out "FREEZE".... if your friends are like mine they are quite used to it and listen. also bar setting motion blur is not as bad as some people think.

02-13-2008, 01:32 PM	#52
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	Originally posted by Gooshin then dont complain about noise! you do realize underexposing 1 stop and then pushing that stop puts me up to the next iso right? just gives me a faster shutter.

02-13-2008, 01:34 PM	#53
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by attack11 you do realize underexposing 1 stop and then pushing that stop puts me up to the next iso right? just gives me a faster shutter. having the shutter open longer is not the same as giving a stronger signal boost.

02-13-2008, 01:35 PM	#54
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	lol. sorry, i just work my hardware to it's limits instead of relying on others to stop what they're doing. that was the first time i've used my k10d in that kind of light situation and i was massively let down with how it did. my ist dl could handle that light better.

02-13-2008, 01:35 PM	#55
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	Originally posted by Gooshin having the shutter open longer is not the same as giving a stronger signal boost. you should read up on it.

02-13-2008, 01:36 PM	#56
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	shooting at ISO 800 at lets say 1/10, then pushing it to 1600 in lightroom, will give you worse results than shooting at ISO 1600 at the same 1/10 then pulling back 1/2 a stop or more in lightroom.

02-13-2008, 01:40 PM	#57
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	if you say so. i'll just ignore all the stuff i've learned shooting hockey in low light arenas. you've opened my eyes Gooshin.

02-13-2008, 01:41 PM	#58
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by attack11 if you say so. i'll just ignore all the stuff i've learned shooting hockey in low light arenas. you've opened my eyes Gooshin. hockey is completly different than bars, you dont have a freaking luminous white surface covering 50% of your screen. ive never shot hockey, but if you look at my galleries you will see over 60% of them are bars/clubs/streets at night, so if you want to ignore my advice on flashless bar shooting, go ahead.

02-13-2008, 01:43 PM	#59
attack11 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 658	Originally posted by Gooshin hockey is completly different than bars, you dont have a freaking luminous white surface covering 50% of your screen. ive never shot hockey, but if you look at my galleries you will see over 60% of them are bars/clubs/streets at night, so if you want to ignore my advice on flashless bar shooting, go ahead. it's not as different as you seem to think. the same under expose/push a stop applies if you want the fastest shutter with the least noise. you gotta remember, you start with less noise at the lower iso always; pushing that stop doesn't introduce more noise.

02-13-2008, 01:55 PM	#60
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	all i know, from personal experience, is that unpleasant noise originating in high ISO pictures (1600, since i dont have options between that and 800) is largely determined by whether or not i properly or over expose a shot. trying to "push" underexposed high ISO pictures will most definetly get you horrible results, if thats how you do things then i'm not at all surprised at your distaste for using high ISO.