Raw not affected by color settings?

EAD Studios · 02-13-2008, 09:39 AM

I guess Im a bit confused when shooting in raw. The way I am understanding is that if shooting in raw, the saturation, sharpness and contrast and white balance that has been fine tuned or altered, set in jpeg does not affect raw?
I see that it does change raw. Am I missing something here?

FireMate · 02-13-2008, 10:06 AM

You can adjust those settings until you're blue in the face... the only one that will affect the RAW image, is White Balence, and even then, it's not going to "change" the raw, it just saves in the raw file what the camera was set to. This is for your software, be it photoshop or bibble or otherwise, to display on your screen what the image looked like according to the camera. Even that though, can be easily changed, as it's not actually "changing" the image, just the way it renders it for the screen.

EAD Studios · 02-13-2008, 10:18 AM

So what I am getting from this is that the settings are stored in the file, but not actually used when previewing my raw image in the display of my k10d.
I have taken many of the same pictures identical to one another with different settings, sharpness, contrast, saturation and WB and all are different in raw.

Finn · 02-13-2008, 10:26 AM

It just saves that info alongside the image file, so that it can be changed without a loss of information in a raw editor. Basically, shooting jpeg just does all the raw editor stuff in-camera, and outputs the resulting image as a jpeg file. You thus can't undo any of the settings in jpeg, but you can in raw. It also means that you don't HAVE to change a damn thing on the camera if you're shooting raw -- it's far easier to adjust everything on a computer anyway.

EAD Studios · 02-13-2008, 10:41 AM

Finn? Do you adjust your white balance considerably in camera mode to were you are satisfied with the ending results?

Robert Barnett · 02-13-2008, 11:07 AM

What raw processing software are you using. Each program makes auto adjustments to the images. Adobe Camera Raw shows the JPG in the RAW image until it can fully render the RAW image so you will see the images load and then you will see them change.

Just make sure that what you are seeing as different from each raw image is actually a difference in the raw image and not something your software is doing.

Robert

Finn · 02-13-2008, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by EAD Studios

Finn? Do you adjust your white balance considerably in camera mode to were you are satisfied with the ending results?

Generally I just leave it on AWB and snap away. I process everything in CS2, where I got rid of all the automated default adjustments, so I can just tweak everything myself.

EAD Studios · 02-14-2008, 07:00 AM

But have you fine tuned your WB in auto and others, or are they set in default mode. I personally like to adjust the WB as close as I can to the actual scene or portrait that I am shooting. Finn? You have some good looking pictures. Your color is outstanding! What are you doing?
I am using Photoshop CS and am shooting in Raw DNG. I also use Lightroom.
What kind of settings do you have adjusted on your K10D. sharpness, contrast, saturation ect.......

EAD Studios · 02-14-2008, 07:02 AM

Robert? I am using Photoshop CS and Lightroom updated version. Im shooting in RAW DNG.

**Lowell Goudge** · 02-14-2008, 07:05 AM

In reading this, it almost seems that the camera settings are used by some post processing programs to display the raw file as you would have adjusted it.

Is this so? then there is still an insentive to get the settings as close as possible, because this will save post processing later.

EAD Studios · 02-14-2008, 07:24 AM

I think you are correct Lowell. I adjust my auto WB as close to the color of the actual scene that I am taking. And than leave that setting for all pictures that I take. Even though every picture you take is different color in the same WB setting, your f stop values exposure etc........ change the color, so the pictures are still different in color even though you have adjusted the WB as close as possible. Ive learned that even if you try to adjust the WB as close to the actual picture you are taking in camera, you still have to adjust in post processing no matter what. I like natural, exact duplicate of the original picture without post processing. And when I see it in my camera display I compare it to the actual scene and adjust accordingly and leave that altered setting for all my pictures I shot. It is very hard to duplicate.
When you try to adjust the auto WB to the actual scene, the cameras WB dosnt have enough fine tuning to get the WB that is needed. Adjusting the contrast, saturation color settings and WB you can get it close but not exact, shooting in jpeg or Raw. Maybe in the next firmware update this will be altered a bit. Post processing is a must, for now.
Am I losing it or what!
Opinions please................

Robert Barnett · 02-15-2008, 09:35 AM

Adobe's software does show the low quality JPG image and then renders out the higher quality preview generated from the actual raw data. They do this so that you have viewable thumbnails as quickly as possible.

When you load images in to Lightroom for example if you watch the thumbnails you will see them change. Many people complained that they did like Adobe applying adjustments to their images without them being able to control them or turn them off.

Thomas Knoll the brains behind all things RAW at Adobe has made it clear several times that that is not what is happening that what is happening is the change seen is when the software stops showing the lower quality JPG preview image and starts showing the higher quality preview from the real raw data.

Just make sure that this isn't what your seeing.

Robert

Robert Barnett · 02-15-2008, 09:40 AM

What balance is the only in camera setting that is applied to RAW. Saturation, sharpness, etc. is not applied. It can't be applied and still called a RAW file. A RAW file is the data as taken by the sensor. The only adjustments made at that level is the white balance and even that is easy enough to change post process.

This is why in something like Adobe Camera RAW or Lightroom you have far more options for white balance with raw files than you do with JPG or TIF files.

This is also why when you set the camera to shoot black and white and you shoot raw you get full color images. All of that stuff is basically in camera post processing and is never applied to the raw images.

Now some companies including Pentax and Canon embed a metadata marker in the file that indicates it was shot in black and white or shot with sharpening at a certain level and their own software will read these metadata markers and make adjustments based on these. However, Adobe and manu other raw processing software packages do not because these markers are either propriatary, how they are interprited is propritary or in the case of Nikon encrypted. While all of these is copied over when you convert from say a NEF to DNG Adobe is unable to do anything with it and Adobe is in fact not interested in doing anything with it as it basically amounts to having the software alter your images. Any altering of images Adobe feels should be done by the user and not the software unless instructed to be done by the user.

Personally, the camera companies just muddy the water with all of this crap.

Robert

blende8 · 02-15-2008, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by FireMate

You can adjust those settings until you're blue in the face... the only one that will affect the RAW image, is White Balence, and even then, it's not going to "change" the raw, it just saves in the raw file what the camera was set to.

Actually this is NOT so.
The WB set affects the RAW!
This has been proven in a long thread on dpreview, where the gurus (GordonBGood etc.) analysed the RAW "histograms".
Depending on the WB set the histograms look different. It's not much, but it is noticable.
E.g. when you have tungsten light, the red color is noticably shifted.

Digg, digg, digg ...

... here's the link:
RAW vs White balance [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Finn · 02-15-2008, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by EAD Studios

But have you fine tuned your WB in auto and others, or are they set in default mode. I personally like to adjust the WB as close as I can to the actual scene or portrait that I am shooting. Finn? You have some good looking pictures. Your color is outstanding! What are you doing?
I am using Photoshop CS and am shooting in Raw DNG. I also use Lightroom.
What kind of settings do you have adjusted on your K10D. sharpness, contrast, saturation ect.......

Thanks, although much of the color rendition I have to attribute to the FA31, which I use for at least 50% of my photos. I use a K100D, which I don't think has quite the level of user customization of the K10D. Usually I find it easy enough to just adjust WB in the CS2 raw editor. Under really tricky lighting when I have the time and inclination, I will set WB manually using a white piece of paper. I never adjust any of the sharpness or contrast settings. Raw is raw is raw, and if I want to tweak any of those parameters I find it works much better to use unsharp mask and curves instead. I like to be in control of exactly what is happening to my photographs.

02-13-2008, 09:39 AM	#1
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27	Raw not affected by color settings? I guess Im a bit confused when shooting in raw. The way I am understanding is that if shooting in raw, the saturation, sharpness and contrast and white balance that has been fine tuned or altered, set in jpeg does not affect raw? I see that it does change raw. Am I missing something here?

02-13-2008, 11:07 AM	#6
Robert Barnett Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 65	What raw processing software? What raw processing software are you using. Each program makes auto adjustments to the images. Adobe Camera Raw shows the JPG in the RAW image until it can fully render the RAW image so you will see the images load and then you will see them change. Just make sure that what you are seeing as different from each raw image is actually a difference in the raw image and not something your software is doing. Robert

02-14-2008, 07:02 AM	#9
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27 Original Poster	Robert? I am using Photoshop CS and Lightroom updated version. Im shooting in RAW DNG. Last edited by EAD Studios; 02-14-2008 at 07:04 AM. Reason: trying to put in order of discussion. Put Roberts name so he knows my reply.

02-14-2008, 07:24 AM	#11
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27 Original Poster	I think you are correct Lowell. I adjust my auto WB as close to the color of the actual scene that I am taking. And than leave that setting for all pictures that I take. Even though every picture you take is different color in the same WB setting, your f stop values exposure etc........ change the color, so the pictures are still different in color even though you have adjusted the WB as close as possible. Ive learned that even if you try to adjust the WB as close to the actual picture you are taking in camera, you still have to adjust in post processing no matter what. I like natural, exact duplicate of the original picture without post processing. And when I see it in my camera display I compare it to the actual scene and adjust accordingly and leave that altered setting for all my pictures I shot. It is very hard to duplicate. When you try to adjust the auto WB to the actual scene, the cameras WB dosnt have enough fine tuning to get the WB that is needed. Adjusting the contrast, saturation color settings and WB you can get it close but not exact, shooting in jpeg or Raw. Maybe in the next firmware update this will be altered a bit. Post processing is a must, for now. Am I losing it or what! Opinions please................ Last edited by EAD Studios; 02-14-2008 at 07:54 AM.

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02-13-2008, 10:06 AM	#2
FireMate Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 105	You can adjust those settings until you're blue in the face... the only one that will affect the RAW image, is White Balence, and even then, it's not going to "change" the raw, it just saves in the raw file what the camera was set to. This is for your software, be it photoshop or bibble or otherwise, to display on your screen what the image looked like according to the camera. Even that though, can be easily changed, as it's not actually "changing" the image, just the way it renders it for the screen.

02-13-2008, 10:18 AM	#3
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27 Original Poster	So what I am getting from this is that the settings are stored in the file, but not actually used when previewing my raw image in the display of my k10d. I have taken many of the same pictures identical to one another with different settings, sharpness, contrast, saturation and WB and all are different in raw.

02-13-2008, 10:26 AM	#4
Finn Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,056	It just saves that info alongside the image file, so that it can be changed without a loss of information in a raw editor. Basically, shooting jpeg just does all the raw editor stuff in-camera, and outputs the resulting image as a jpeg file. You thus can't undo any of the settings in jpeg, but you can in raw. It also means that you don't HAVE to change a damn thing on the camera if you're shooting raw -- it's far easier to adjust everything on a computer anyway.

02-13-2008, 10:41 AM	#5
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27 Original Poster	Finn? Do you adjust your white balance considerably in camera mode to were you are satisfied with the ending results?

02-13-2008, 12:40 PM	#7
Finn Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,056	Originally posted by EAD Studios Finn? Do you adjust your white balance considerably in camera mode to were you are satisfied with the ending results? Generally I just leave it on AWB and snap away. I process everything in CS2, where I got rid of all the automated default adjustments, so I can just tweak everything myself.

02-14-2008, 07:00 AM	#8
EAD Studios Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Adell, Wi Posts: 27 Original Poster	But have you fine tuned your WB in auto and others, or are they set in default mode. I personally like to adjust the WB as close as I can to the actual scene or portrait that I am shooting. Finn? You have some good looking pictures. Your color is outstanding! What are you doing? I am using Photoshop CS and am shooting in Raw DNG. I also use Lightroom. What kind of settings do you have adjusted on your K10D. sharpness, contrast, saturation ect.......

02-14-2008, 07:05 AM	#10
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	In reading this, it almost seems that the camera settings are used by some post processing programs to display the raw file as you would have adjusted it. Is this so? then there is still an insentive to get the settings as close as possible, because this will save post processing later.

02-15-2008, 09:35 AM	#12
Robert Barnett Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 65	Adobe's software does show the low quality JPG image and then renders out the higher quality preview generated from the actual raw data. They do this so that you have viewable thumbnails as quickly as possible. When you load images in to Lightroom for example if you watch the thumbnails you will see them change. Many people complained that they did like Adobe applying adjustments to their images without them being able to control them or turn them off. Thomas Knoll the brains behind all things RAW at Adobe has made it clear several times that that is not what is happening that what is happening is the change seen is when the software stops showing the lower quality JPG preview image and starts showing the higher quality preview from the real raw data. Just make sure that this isn't what your seeing. Robert

02-15-2008, 09:40 AM	#13
Robert Barnett Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 65	What balance is the only in camera setting that is applied to RAW. Saturation, sharpness, etc. is not applied. It can't be applied and still called a RAW file. A RAW file is the data as taken by the sensor. The only adjustments made at that level is the white balance and even that is easy enough to change post process. This is why in something like Adobe Camera RAW or Lightroom you have far more options for white balance with raw files than you do with JPG or TIF files. This is also why when you set the camera to shoot black and white and you shoot raw you get full color images. All of that stuff is basically in camera post processing and is never applied to the raw images. Now some companies including Pentax and Canon embed a metadata marker in the file that indicates it was shot in black and white or shot with sharpening at a certain level and their own software will read these metadata markers and make adjustments based on these. However, Adobe and manu other raw processing software packages do not because these markers are either propriatary, how they are interprited is propritary or in the case of Nikon encrypted. While all of these is copied over when you convert from say a NEF to DNG Adobe is unable to do anything with it and Adobe is in fact not interested in doing anything with it as it basically amounts to having the software alter your images. Any altering of images Adobe feels should be done by the user and not the software unless instructed to be done by the user. Personally, the camera companies just muddy the water with all of this crap. Robert

02-15-2008, 09:49 AM	#14
blende8 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bremen, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 1,521	Originally posted by FireMate You can adjust those settings until you're blue in the face... the only one that will affect the RAW image, is White Balence, and even then, it's not going to "change" the raw, it just saves in the raw file what the camera was set to. Actually this is NOT so. The WB set affects the RAW! This has been proven in a long thread on dpreview, where the gurus (GordonBGood etc.) analysed the RAW "histograms". Depending on the WB set the histograms look different. It's not much, but it is noticable. E.g. when you have tungsten light, the red color is noticably shifted. Digg, digg, digg ... ... here's the link: RAW vs White balance [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

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02-15-2008, 09:50 AM	#15
Finn Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,056	Originally posted by EAD Studios But have you fine tuned your WB in auto and others, or are they set in default mode. I personally like to adjust the WB as close as I can to the actual scene or portrait that I am shooting. Finn? You have some good looking pictures. Your color is outstanding! What are you doing? I am using Photoshop CS and am shooting in Raw DNG. I also use Lightroom. What kind of settings do you have adjusted on your K10D. sharpness, contrast, saturation ect....... Thanks, although much of the color rendition I have to attribute to the FA31, which I use for at least 50% of my photos. I use a K100D, which I don't think has quite the level of user customization of the K10D. Usually I find it easy enough to just adjust WB in the CS2 raw editor. Under really tricky lighting when I have the time and inclination, I will set WB manually using a white piece of paper. I never adjust any of the sharpness or contrast settings. Raw is raw is raw, and if I want to tweak any of those parameters I find it works much better to use unsharp mask and curves instead. I like to be in control of exactly what is happening to my photographs.