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12-08-2012, 05:32 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm really curious at whether or not 24 MP APS-c cameras will resolve paired lines better than a 16 MP
Speaking of paired lines...Imaging Resource have something like that. You can compare for example paired line tests of the resolution of the Sony NEX-7 and the NEX-5N, or even the K-5 or the D7000, complete with lots of sample charts, of course.

It is interesting how modest the scale of the visible resolution gap between the cameras is: NEX-7 (2,400 lines horizontal) and the NEX-5N (~2,200 lines horizontal) RAWs. Same with the K-5 and D7000 (both 2,100 lines horizontal).

Going just by eye, there is a visible difference, but only just, and one can easily see how other factors (RAW processor, sharpening algorithms, lens quality, output processing etc) could very easily swing the balance either way with any of these cameras.

12-08-2012, 05:54 PM   #17
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If it's just a K-5 III with a 24MP APS-C sensor, then I will be switching systems.

The next flagship product should represent the best the company has to offer. It should showcase their innovation, their direction, their commitment.
12-08-2012, 06:17 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Pentax needs to have something big to showcase at CP+, and you're right- it's probably going to be an APS-C DSLR. Even though they have a lot of room for improvement in other areas and that's what they should focus on, obviously the IQ can also be improved over that of the K-5 without going to FF, but I'm not sure if the current 24Mp sensors are good enough. As with anything electronic, there's never a piece of hardware that won't become obsolete: it's only a question of time before something better comes out.

as I have read the tea leaves, the K5II with/w/0 the "s" is a cautious test market for going AA less. If I understand things right the need for
the AA filter becomes less as the pixel count increases. My assumption is that that they will be looking at the market data of the 2 k5's selling
side by side and use that to decide whether the 24 mp version should or should not have an AA filter. As you say early spring would
be the logical time for this to float out.
12-08-2012, 07:32 PM   #19
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Speaking of paired lines...Imaging Resource have something like that. You can compare for example paired line tests of the resolution of the Sony NEX-7 and the NEX-5N, or even the K-5 or the D7000, complete with lots of sample charts, of course.

Excellent. Max for a K-5 2800 lines to complete extinction. Clear at 2100 lines per picture height
For a D600 3600 lines to complete extinction. Clear at 2800 lines per picture height
For D800 Clear at 2,700 lines per picture height "Complete extinction of the pattern didn't occur before the limits of our chart." To high to be measured apparently.
The 645 D arguably was clear at 3000 lines per picture height and was also still visible at 4000 lh/ph

Just as a rule I've been unable to distinguish by eye, images less than 200 lines per picture height apart. It would have been useful if they'd indicated how many lines per picture height their chart went to, I'm assuming it was 4000 lines per picture height.

Starting from the k-5 at 2100, you double the sensor size and you get to 2600- 2700 and you double that again and you get to 3000. 75% of the resolution visible in a D800 is visible of in a k-5. But the D800 to 645D only gets you another 300. Fascinating stuff.

The D3200 has 2400 and 3400. That would suggest that going to a 24 Mp sensor could be good for Pentax in the MTF wars, but they still own't be competing with the D600 or D800. The Canon 5D Mk II resolves the same as the 24 MP D3200, even though it's FF. SO for those who claim no APS-c camera out resolves any FF, read em and weep.

The obvious conclusion here is that there is a distinct law of diminishing returns in the quest for more resolution.
I'm a little curious as to why the D600 and D800 are so close together in veiw of the much larger resolution of the sensor. It's always good to find new stuff.

At this point I'm left wondering though... after the line widths start to get really narrow, how much difference does that make. 2000 lines per picture height is resolving at a very high level. How much better is the 2700 of a D800. It's more, but you need to see it to decide.


Last edited by normhead; 12-08-2012 at 08:17 PM.
12-09-2012, 04:06 AM   #20
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I think that over the coming few years we will reach the point where new developments for camera's are to expensive and not delivering any new IQ so we are going to see that camera's will be in production for a longer period (like 4-5 years).

Professionals may like RAW-files that exceed 100 MB each, but amateurs won't go that route. That will limit resolution. Costs for lenses are another thing to limit the market.

I would like a 24mp FF, but a 24mp aps-c doesn't work fine (at the time) with hi-iso settings.

I'm working with the current K-5 II body since the arriving off the K-7 in july 2009. I hope we could have that body for a few more years and that new stuff will go inside that body. It fits like a glove!
12-09-2012, 07:41 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I would like a 24mp FF, but a 24mp aps-c doesn't work fine (at the time) with hi-iso settings.
Did you compare at DXO as I suggested above? The graphed SNR results for the NEX5N and NEX7 are right on top of one another. DPR test photos are misleading because they don't account for different resolution. Only DXO shows corrected results.
DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side
12-09-2012, 07:48 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Did you compare at DXO as I suggested above? The graphed SNR results for the NEX5N and NEX7 are right on top of one another. DPR test photos are misleading because they don't account for different resolution. Only DXO shows corrected results.
DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side
Well I've only seen images from A77 (SLT) and those did not please me at all.
12-09-2012, 08:08 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Did you compare at DXO as I suggested above? The graphed SNR results for the NEX5N and NEX7 are right on top of one another. DPR test photos are misleading because they don't account for different resolution. Only DXO shows corrected results.
DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side
I have been to DxO a number of times, their rating includes a number of things, dynamic range, low light performance, colour depth.... but not MTF numbers as far as I can tell. THe Nex 7 resolves at 2400 with extinction at 3000 so on par with the Nikon D3200.


Last edited by normhead; 12-09-2012 at 08:15 AM.
12-09-2012, 08:17 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
but not MTF numbers as far as I can tell.
That's right. As DxO say:
QuoteQuote:
In a camera, resolution is dependent on both sensor and lens performances. So to compare and rank digital cameras while taking resolution into account, you should look at the DxOMark Score for lenses (with camera), which weighs a number of image quality parameters, including resolution.
What DxO do make available in their sensor scores are results normalised to 8MP (under the 'Print' tab in the measurements), but that doesn't say anything about MTF, unless I am misunderstanding things.
12-09-2012, 08:28 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Did you compare at DXO as I suggested above? The graphed SNR results for the NEX5N and NEX7 are right on top of one another. DPR test photos are misleading because they don't account for different resolution. Only DXO shows corrected results.
DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
That's right. As DxO say:


What DxO do make available in their sensor scores are results normalised to 8MP (under the 'Print' tab in the measurements), but that doesn't say anything about MTF, unless I am misunderstanding things.
What I'm starting to think now is that the original images posted on Imaging resource with the D600 were done with the kit lens while the K-5 used a better lens. The lens used must make a huge amount of difference to how these numbers pan out.

Look at these numbers, done on photo zone for the Sigma 85, 1.4


The 2838 lw/ph exceeds anything posted for any camera save the 345D. Those numbers exceed the numbers posted by Imaging Resource, Clearly, you need the best lens to make these comparisons, a better lens should boost the resolution of your camera as much as upgrading from a 16 MP camera to a 24 MP camera.

What would be really cool would be if they'd just take the lens thing out of it. Buy bunch of Sigma 85's in every mount it's available for and test every camera with it. That would give us an lens independent numbers. Right now the numbers we look at are camera and lens combinations.

Last edited by normhead; 12-09-2012 at 08:38 AM.
12-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What would be really cool would be if they'd just take the lens thing out of it. Buy bunch of Sigma 85's in every mount it's available for and test every camera with it.
I think Imaging Resource do all their resolution and other standard test shots on a FF Sigma 70mm macro, since that lens is/was available for all mounts - Nikon, Pentax etc. So there is some standardisation there.
12-09-2012, 09:17 AM   #27
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Further along that line....
if you look at the results for the 31 ltd. those numbers are well up into the D800 and D600 zone.



Then if you ask yourself as I did... well how much resolution can I get with a high end lens on a high end body .. and the answer is pretty spectacular. On a high end Nikon body the fabled 14-24 G has almost twice the resolution of a K-5 with the lens Imaging resource tested.



Over 4000 lw/ph. Imaging resources test chart doesn't go that high.

The clear conclusion, there's no point in going to a high end system, unless you're going to splurge for a couple of high end lenses. Since I do landscape, for me to get into a Nikon system, I'd be looking at 3 k for my camera and 2 k for a 14-24. That's 5k just to sit down at the table. The stakes might be a little rich for most of us. SInce I'm almost certain to want 24-70 covered, that's a $7k buy in. If I'm not going at least 5, I'm better off getting top of the line lenses for my K-5.

Also notice, getting the 31 ltd also get you better resolution than the 24 Mp Nex or D3200. And if Pentax ever does come out with a K-mount DSLR your buy in is a lot lower because you already have some top of the line lenses.

Last edited by normhead; 12-09-2012 at 09:40 AM.
12-09-2012, 09:32 AM   #28
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You may be falling into the trap of comparing resolution numbers across systems. Photozone warns against this at the top of it's test pages:
QuoteQuote:
Please note that the tests results are not comparable across the different test systems! This also applies to the 10mp (K10D) vs 16mp (K5) tests here because of the different AA filter characteristic between the cameras!
In relation to this:

QuoteQuote:
One needs to be extra careful when comparing MTF charts amongst cameras with different sensor sizes. For example, an MTF curve at 30 LP/mm on a full frame camera is not equivalent to a different 30 LP/mm MTF curve on a 1.6X cropped sensor. The cropped sensor would instead need to show a curve at 48 LP/mm for a fair comparison, because the cropped sensor gets enlarged more when being made into the same size print.
Camera Lens Quality: MTF, Resolution & Contrast
12-09-2012, 09:46 AM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteQuote:
The cropped sensor would instead need to show a curve at 48 LP/mm for a fair comparison, because the cropped sensor gets enlarged more when being made into the same size print.
I've spent so much time analysing this it's a quick answer. That's actually incorrect. They haven't thought this through. If you get 2600 lw/ph on an APS-c and 2600 on an FF, you have essentially the same thing. A picture with a base resolution of 2600 at however big it is. They will be equally sharp. IN digital, the enlargement factor has nothing to do with it. It's all about the pixels.
12-09-2012, 10:28 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's all about the pixels.
Or by always referring to the same print size output, in one way of looking at it, or maybe the pixel density of different sensors

Anyway, I'm out of my depth on this. I'll stop now...
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