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02-16-2008, 06:23 PM   #1
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hyperprogram vs. p shift?

Okay, so, I found the hyper program mode on my K10D kind of useful, until I discovered the P Shift setting. This lets me put one dial to choose how I want to set the balance between fast shutter speed or fast aperture, and then use the other dial for EV compensation (unfortunately, no ISO setting, which would also be useful).

This seems to in practice do everything the hyperprogram does with the advantage of giving me another dial. Am I missing something?

02-16-2008, 09:21 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Okay, so, I found the hyper program mode on my K10D kind of useful, until I discovered the P Shift setting. This lets me put one dial to choose how I want to set the balance between fast shutter speed or fast aperture, and then use the other dial for EV compensation (unfortunately, no ISO setting, which would also be useful).

This seems to in practice do everything the hyperprogram does with the advantage of giving me another dial. Am I missing something?
I don't use the EV compensation alot, but I see how that would be very useful for someone who does. I personally like to be able to adjust aperture and shutter separately in P mode. You can only assign ISO to the e-dials in Sv and Tv I think.

It is nice to be able to customize this camera for our tastes.
02-16-2008, 09:39 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Okay, so, I found the hyper program mode on my K10D kind of useful, until I discovered the P Shift setting. This lets me put one dial to choose how I want to set the balance between fast shutter speed or fast aperture, and then use the other dial for EV compensation (unfortunately, no ISO setting, which would also be useful).

This seems to in practice do everything the hyperprogram does with the advantage of giving me another dial. Am I missing something?
Matt, Program shift still allows [OK] and front edial to change the ISO. It seems like the best of all worlds to me. I just checked it out, after your note, and have my k10d set to #3 in the menus: front dial of ev comp, rear dial to program shift, and [OK] allows me to set the ISO with the front dial.

PS: I saved this setting to USER and it held.

Last edited by Canada_Rockies; 02-16-2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Added PS
03-12-2008, 12:07 AM   #4
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Is there a similar feature like this on the K100D Super?

03-12-2008, 12:54 AM   #5
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two dials

I never understood what the big deal is about the two dials in P mode. Whichever dial you turn has the exact same effect. With the one dial of the K200D the P mode works just fine, and with the +/- button so close to the shutter it's a snap to change EC. There are other times when the two dials come in handy, but not in P mode.
Mike
03-12-2008, 02:31 AM   #6
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Sv mode

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
This seems to in practice do everything the hyperprogram does with the advantage of giving me another dial. Am I missing something?
Why not use Sv mode? Gives you ISO selection + Pshift on the dials, and the EV comp. is just one button away under your thumb.
03-12-2008, 06:33 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by wasupdoc Quote
I never understood what the big deal is about the two dials in P mode. Whichever dial you turn has the exact same effect.
Mike
No, with one you go to Tv, with the other to Av: two different program lines for different purposes.
03-12-2008, 07:40 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Okay, so, I found the hyper program mode on my K10D kind of useful, until I discovered the P Shift setting. This lets me put one dial to choose how I want to set the balance between fast shutter speed or fast aperture, and then use the other dial for EV compensation ...
Matt,

This sounds intriguing, but I am not sure I understand how it works. I think the problem may be that I don't understand P Shift. I hasten to add that I can't find one word about it in the K20D manual.

On the K20D, I went into the menus and changed custom menu #20 ("e-dial in Program") to setting 4 (front = P Shift, rear = +/-). What I don't understand is, what kind of feedback do I get when I move the front e-dial now? I can see the indicator bar moving on the EV gauge when I move the rear e-dial. But when I move the front e-dial, all that seems to happen is that the camera changes the exposure and I'm not sure I understand what's really going on. It looks an awful lot like the front e-dial is controlling the shutter speed. But I was expecting to see something change on the top LED that indicated the current program line, for example, 1 = Normal, 2 = fast speed, 2 = depth of field, 4 = MTF. But I don't. What am I missing?

Will

03-12-2008, 12:10 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
No, with one you go to Tv, with the other to Av: two different program lines for different purposes.
Not trying to be disagreeable but I have to disagree because I believe it is a source of misunderstanding. I have read the K10D manual, and see no reference to different program lines depending on which dial you turn. The program line is set in the custom menu and is followed no matter which dial you turn. I understand the difference between Av and Tv. But there is not a combination of aperature and shutter speed that you can set with one dial that you can't set with the other. If you start at f2.8 1/60 and change the fstop to f4 the shutter will change to 1/30. If you then use the other dial and set the shutter back to 1/60 the fstop will change back to f2.8. The available combinations are ALWAYS the same for a given exposure independent of the program line choosen - you do not gain +/- EC simply because you decided to use P mode as Av or Tv. Only when you first obtain exposure or when you press the green button does the program line choosen in the custom menu make any difference.
Mike
03-12-2008, 02:19 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
But I was expecting to see something change on the top LED that indicated the current program line, for example, 1 = Normal, 2 = fast speed, 2 = depth of field, 4 = MTF. But I don't. What am I missing?
It doesn't seem to change the P mode setting, but rather changes the weighting of shutter speed vs. aperture. So if you turn it one way, you get fast shutter speeds and wide apertures. The other direction goes towards the other possibility: slower shutter speed matched with greater depth of field. The green button then puts you back to whatever the base program would select. (MTF in my current.)

So, like wasupdoc says, it seems to give you exactly what you'd get with both Tv or Av mode, but with only one dial.
03-12-2008, 03:07 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
It doesn't seem to change the P mode setting, but rather changes the weighting of shutter speed vs. aperture. So if you turn it one way, you get fast shutter speeds and wide apertures. The other direction goes towards the other possibility: slower shutter speed matched with greater depth of field. The green button then puts you back to whatever the base program would select. (MTF in my current.)

So, like wasupdoc says, it seems to give you exactly what you'd get with both Tv or Av mode, but with only one dial.


Matt,

Color me dense, but I still don't follow. And I'd be grateful for a better understanding of what's at issue here. As I said, perhaps I don't understand the whole program line/program shift idea, so let me start there, and somebody can slap me and set me straight if I've got this wrong.

The way I understand program line, it tells the camera to give weight to one setting or another when calculating an automatic exposure. So if you set the camera to use the depth (of field) program line, then when it meters the light and calculates appropriate exposure settings, it goes for a small aperture insofar as possible. On the other hand, if you select shutter speed priority as the program line, then the camera tries to give you the fastest (reasonable) shutter speed and depth of field be damned. If you select MTF, the camera consults its internal database for the lens and finds that this lens works best at, oh, f/5.6, so it tries to get the exposure close to f/5.6 and calculates the shutter speed accordingly. There must be some limits in there and I assume they're reasonable. For example, perhaps the internal computer won't ever set the the shutter speed to something slower than the reciprocal of the focal length. But I think I've got the general idea right. Yes?

By the way, I have NO earthly idea what the camera does in "Normal" mode. Maybe it's Goldilocks mode: aperture as close to f/5.6 or f/8 as possible, shutter speed as close to 1/400th sec as possible. But I dunno. Since I've been shooting in M mode almost exclusively for a year, I haven't really given a darn about program line until today when I read your message.

__________


OK, if I'm completely off base, it should be evident by now. If I'm not, keep reading.

So I take "P (program line) Shift" to be a way of shifting, i.e. changing the program line, from an e-dial, so you don't have to dig into the custom menus to do this. BUT, you can only push the e-dial in two directions, and there are at least THREE program lines to get to (shutter speed, depth of field, and MTF, assuming that we simply skip "Normal"). That's why I was thinking, when I first read your message, that you could turn the e-dial and tell the camera, "No, I don't want you to meter the scene and set the camera using depth of field program line, I want you to give greater weight to the shutter speed," and the camera would do two things:
  1. Change the settings from, say, f/8 and 1/200th sec, to f/5.6 and 1/400th sec.
  2. Indicate somewhere on the LED that the program line was now "2" (hi-speed) rather than "3" (depth).
__________


Now, if you could control the program line from the front e-dial in the way I expect (that is, if the camera would show you that it's using either hi-speed or depth or MTF) and if you could adjust the EVC using the rear e-dial, then I think you could perhaps adjust the exposure, at least in some cases, more quickly than you can if you're actually adjust the shutter speed or aperture with those same dials. Why? Well, say the camera initially suggests 1/200th sec and f/11 (after you hit the green button). Using the default option for the dials in P (hyperprogram) mode, if you wanted to increase the shutter speed to, say, 1/1000th sec and if you were using 1/3rd stop increments, you'd have to make quite a few turns of the dial to get to where you wanted to be. But if there were only three different program lines to be affected as you turn that dial, in most cases, you could get where you want to go with a SINGLE click of the e-dial. Because if you're at 2, you'd go back to 1 in one click, or forward to 3 in one click.

As I said, what am I missing (or misunderstanding)? Thanks for your patience.

Will
03-12-2008, 03:45 PM   #12
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First off, afaik Program lines only work in Green and HyperProgram mode.

For a given amount of light there is a set of aperture/shutterspeed combinations that all give a correct exposure. What the program line does is select the combination that gives the result it is looking for (eg. DOF program line will tend towards lower apertures).

All program Shift does is select the next aperture/shutterspeed combination in the set mentioned above.
Pressing the green button selects again the correct combination according to the active program line.
The Green button can also be "programmed":
- use Program line (default)
- lock aperture and adjust shutterspeed
- lock shutterspeed and adjust aperture
(page 158 K10D)
Furthermore since firmware 1.10 you can use these settings in M AND TAv.

Last edited by baw; 03-14-2008 at 04:39 PM. Reason: added Green button settings
03-12-2008, 07:15 PM   #13
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Program shift allows you to move through all the available combinations of aperture/shutter for a given exposure. It is not limited to the 4 "program lines", it allows all of the combinations.

It is also available in SV mode. So, in a way it allows the SV mode to function like a second program mode. This way you can keep the hypermode set on "P", and have the "program shift" function through the SV setting. Front dial is program shift, aft dial is ISO.

You can also set the TAV and M mode to use the "program line" when the green button is pressed. Kinda handy to get straight to a start point fast.

I assume the camera uses the "program line" when it calculates exposure with TV and AV modes. I could play arround with the camera and figure this out, but maybe someone knows?

Eric
03-12-2008, 07:19 PM   #14
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After further thought, the camera would not need to use the program line to calculate exposure in TV or TA mode. Scratch that idea.
03-12-2008, 07:51 PM   #15
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Well, thanks to baw and KungPOW for your explanations.

I must say that the term "program shift" doesn't seem very useful to me. As I said, it is nowhere USED, let alone explained, in the PDF version of the K20D manual, which I searched before posting my question here. To me, "program" mainly suggests "program line," not "exposure"; and if program = program line, then "program shift" would suggest switching from one program line (one bias) to another, NOT simply cycling through all the permutations of the possible "correct" exposures. But I admit that your explanations comport with the behavior of the camera that I observe myself.

So my personal conclusion is that setting the front e-dial to cycle through the two dozen correct exposures and the back dial to EVC just doesn't seem as useful as leaving the dials configured in the default manner, with front e-dial controlling shutter speed (and thus putting the camera into effective Tv mode) and the rear e-dial controlling aperture (and putting the camera into effective Av mode). It's no loss. I already loved the way hyperprogram works on the K10D/K20D, and I'm happy to stick with it.

Will
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