[Matjazz]

Hi
I'm wandering if DL supports TTL flash?
I'm selling AF220T flash to a buyer that owns DL and I'm not sure if his camera supports TTL (he doesn't know either).

Thank you for your answers.

[Lipo]

I think only P-TTL, or manual. Not older TTL.

[Adam]

Sadly, no TTL. It's understandeable in the DS/DL series, but why did they forget to add it to the K10D?

The only Pentax DSLR that supports TTL is the *ist D, and trust me, it's useful!

[Matjazz]

Not quite right. I'm using AF220T on my DS and it works as it should. I know that DL is a dumbed down version of DS but I'm not sure if TTL support has been left out as well.

[Adam]

Neither camera has TTL- just have a look at the manual.

Chances are that you images will not be correctly lit if you don't use a P-TTL flash and auto lens.

[Matjazz]

TTL flashes work on DS with auto lens. I've tested it with AF220T and soligor 42 DA

[Adam]

TTL flashes work on DS with auto lens. I've tested it with AF220T and soligor 42 DA

You had a lucky day. The Ds does not have the extra light meter sensor which is a necessity for TTL flash support.

Yup...

According to page 153 of the manual, the external flash attempts TTL with M and K lenses. Incorrect exposure may occur near min/max aperture values.

Since the camera itself has no TTL sensor, the built-in flash is useless on M and K lenses (unless you're lucky)!

Despite all this techncal talk, some combinations may still work

Adam
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[snostorm]

Yup...

According to page 153 of the manual, the external flash attempts TTL with M and K lenses. Incorrect exposure may occur near min/max aperture values.

Since the camera itself has no TTL sensor, the built-in flash is useless on M and K lenses (unless you're lucky)!

Despite all this techncal talk, some combinations may still work

Hi Guys,

I don't know where you're getting this -- page 153 of the manual clearly states that the DS is indeed TTL capable, but it's "restricted" (that's what the "#" means) to ISO 200-400. Wide apertures may cause overexposure and narrow ones undereposure. Why would they even list all the TTL flashes in the manual if they couldn't be used with the DS?

These restrictions and caveats (and cost, of course) were probably why Pentax dropped TTL support in the K series bodies. The problem is that reading off the CCD has been found to be not as accurate as it was with film (The reflectance is different, hence the restriction in ISO and the caveats concerning exposure at the ends of the aperture range). It was obviously good enough for a lot DS owners to be very disappointed that the support wasn't continued in the K10D (including me).

I have a DS and regularly use an AF 200T, an AF 280T and an AF 500 FTZ with it using TTL -- and hundreds of shots under various conditions, shutter speeds, and apertures to prove that it's not just luck.

The onboard flash doesn't work with K and M lenses because it's P-TTL only and apparently needs the aperture information to meter. Whether the body has a TTL meter or not is not the cause.

BTW, Matjazz -- the D and DS (and i'm not sure about the DS2) are the only Pentax DSLRs that support TTL flash.

[Matjazz]

I too have checked both manuals and while several TTL flashes are listed in DS manual (p153) only built-in and AF360FGZ is listed in the DL manual. That leads me to a conclusion snostorm has already stated: DS has TTL support while DL doesn't.
I guess I won't be selling AF220T just yet.

[BarneyCG]

BTW, Matjazz -- the D and DS (and i'm not sure about the DS2) are the only Pentax DSLRs that support TTL flash.

DS2 supports TTL as well.

[clm]

DS2 supports TTL as well.

Samsung GX-1S does, too. I have used AF 280T and AF 400FTZ with it.

[Adam]

Just because the cameras support TTL-external flashes doesn't mean they actually have TTL.

The D is the only body that has the TTL sensor, thus allowing it to use the built-in flash with any lens whether it's automatic or not.

Flashes on the DS, DL, and K series cameras all work the same. If an external flash is automatic, it'll work. It can also work in manual mode, but not in TTL.

I'll post some sample shots in a few minutes that prove my point

[snostorm]

Hi Adam,

I think that you're digging yourself into a deeper hole, unless you really have some inside info. How about a shot of the left side of the DS lightbox (as you look from the back of the camera)? Like this:



Of course this might be a dummy sensor, or they might have not connected it, or even disabled it via firmware, but somehow I doubt that they'd do any of these.

FYI, the AF500FTZ does not have an Auto mode -- it's only automatic mode is TTL, and it works with the DS (as stated in the DS manual).

Why are you so resistant to this idea?

Scott

[Adam]

Care to lend me a ladder?

I've read an online source saying that the DS2 doesn't have partial TTL like the DS, but since it does have the TTL sensor you posted above, something's starting to smell fishy. I had otherwise thought that the only difference was the screen...we'll see if this is true or not.

But here's what I'm understanting right now:
-The D supports TTL for both built-in and external flashes
-The ??DS?? supports TTL for external flahes only
-The ??DS2??/DL/DL2/K100D/K110D/K10D's don't support TTL at all.

Since I based all my earlier tests only on the DS2, I may have been a bit off. However, it's not likely that there'd be a dummy sensor in the DS2 and a real one in the DS, lol.

I otherwise wrote a long rant, but if the info above is true, I'll just leave it out. If it turns out that both the DS2 ad DS don't have TTL, then I have a big point to prove (I've done two simple yet effective tests now). Finally, if all else fails, we at least know that both the DS2 and DS have the sensor.

If we do come to some sort of a revelation here, I've done a simple test with the AF200T on my DS2 set to TTL mode. As stated by the manual, images shot at the extremes would be incorrectly lit. I found this true for F2, 11, and 16 with my M 50mm F2. This just proves that the only reason the images are correctly lit is that all the other F stops are close to F8, which is the optimal aperture suggested by Auto mode.

The built-in flash is on the other hand completely useless with M lenses on the DS, DS2, DL, DL2, K100D, K110D, K10D.

On the D, the AF200T correctly lit the shots at all apertures, and so did the built-in flash. Let's not bring flash intensity into the picture, though!

Since we're both more or less in agreement now, I have no clue why the sensors are there on both the DS and DS2 if they don't support a full array of TTL functions...
I do bet, however, that a K1D, with TTL support, will come out at some point.

Completely off-topic, but another interesting mystery is that the D has a full-frame mirror while the other cameras have APS-C sized ones. I guess Pentax was seriously considering a full-frame version of the D...

[snostorm]

Hi Adam,

No ladder needed -- it was a small hole. . .

Now you've got me thinking -- as much as that's possible, at least!

I didn't realize that the extent of the TTL support was different between the D and DS, nor that the mirror (and I have to assume lightbox) were also different between the two bodies. It could be that the dimensional differences cause the performance difference, and they found that a choice to scale the mirror and lightbox to APS-C also made continued TTL support inconsistent with their quality baseline. . .

. . .or (and here's where the marketing dept "conspiracy theories" kick in, something that I hadn't really taken seriously before, BTW) . . . they might have decided that their newish P-TTL flash wasn't selling at a high enough ratio to new DSLR bodies once the DS took off and sold in reasonable numbers. Backwards compatibility, no matter how desirable it is to consumers, has to hurt their bottom line, and virtually forcing an upgrade in flash units would probably be their least resisted first step in pulling back from their corporate philosophy of providing the highest level of backward compatibility since extensive/advanced external flash users are a relative minority, and citing "performance issues" would probably satisfy most of the grumblers.

Deleting the onboard flash's ability to control wireless TTL flash after the D would also fit into this scenario (with cost being the primary explanation -- and now you could sell twice as many flashes to those who desired this advanced feature). Choosing to not update the 360 with a swivel head (and the introduction of a more professionally featured unit with a swivel head) also slides in here -- previously, the AF280T filled a midgrade unit slot with a tilt and swivel head -- the AF400T, AF400 FTZ and AF500 FTZ added power and capability. Performance and cost issues could be used to explain each of the moves they make, and these would probably be accepted by consumers after some initial grumbling. I've never really accepted interference with the SR system as a viable explanation for not including onboard flash control for wireless TTL in the K10, and they've left themselves an out with the rumor of being able to add this with a firmware fix if the "work out the bugs".

DL and K100/110 sales would establish an "new" (and much larger) user base which is already used to not having TTL compatibility, and even the DS user base would see the advantages the greater range of P-TTL over the crippled TTL compatibility, and those who want better flash performance would bite the bullet and go ahead with a P-TTL flash (or two) -- especially if their new upgrade path (K10) reinforces this by not including TTL support for the aforementioned "quality issues", and wireless TTL control from the onboard flash (I did, and bought an AF540 to augment my AF360).

Conspiracy theories are so much fun. . .

I'll be looking at the move towards SSM lenses with a more jaundiced eye in the nest few years, especially after the Hoya thing introduces new potential influences to Pentax's managerial philosophy. . .

Scott